Baptism Saves, but so Do the other Means of Grace

[bkr_]

We were saved, we are being saved, we will be saved.

[oliverlamie]

"It's not magic" - one of Joel Okamoto's constant phrases, with the usual clarification, "but it is a miracle."

[prussianhill]

Dr. Cooper; I'm a new convert to lutheranism (wels), and I would like to have a better understand of the church fathers and their writings. I'm an attorney so I'm no stranger to reading, but I don't necessarily have endless time. Is there a particular book or treatise that you'd recommend for someone to get an effective introduction (that's not just a random collection of quotes from the early fathers)?

[solafidedeum]

🕆 Matthew 11:27-30 (Jesus declared)"All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him. Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light, ..”🕆
Grow in your faith, humble yourself, and surrender to the word and will of God. Let the Holy Spirit guide you. Let God’s Peace and Grace be with you (To The Reader). Praise God always. Amen. 🕆🙏🙌

[Sam-uxcn]

About salvation being a specifc moment, i come from a baptist backgorund and aways hear in the sermons something like: "You must hand your life to Jesus", "You must repent and acept Jesus", "If you fell that your relation with God is damage use this moment to reconciliate with Christ". So its seems more like a continuous reset, wjile in lutheranism i feel way more assure about reciving Gods Grace.

[laiquende]

This is closer to the confessional Reformed position than what most Reformed would have you think.

[KB-gdfc]

My problem with this view is that we only see fruits of the spirit in people after faith. Never after baptism. When I was 7 I was baptized. I “believed ” in a very superficial sort of way but bore no fruits. Not until 32 years old when I truly repented and believed.

[dylan]

When I forgive someone, I don’t “work forgiveness” (whatever that even means) through something else, over and over again (for some reason)—what, into them? for them? of them? I don’t understand the machinery at work here.

[raykidder]

I view the sacrament of Trinitarian Holy Baptism as an entrance into a saving covenant that then works through faith and hope in the benefits of this covenant. Babies can receive this entrance much like circumcision was so that the Jewish baby boys could receive the benefits of the Old Testament covenant (including the benefits of having the oracles of God). I therefore liken baptism to the reception of an invisible Bible. Baptism is to promote faith more than a sign of already having saving faith; much like how manufactured Bible ownership is to promote the Christian faith rather than just a sign of preexisting Christian faith. I like how come members of the Church of Christ denomination have used Romans 6 to point out that baptism is for the spiritually dead rather than for the spiritually alive. You bury the dead; and not the living.

[JonathanGrandt]

Yes. Water baptism IS magic. Magic that only works if you believe in it.

… and ONLY if a special man performs the baptism. You can’t go baptizing your own kids at home to save them nooo no You gotta have the wizard do it.

[RCopley]

Feels like Lutherans always say "Faith Alone" and then take faith out of it with "baptism saves" and "communion saves".

I dont reject the sacraments efficacy but I believe it is clear that they only save in that they are works of faith. The faith is what is saving through the sacraments, not the sacraments in and of themselves. I see no scriptural basis that baptism "creates" faith but that faith leads us to baptism to be marked and strengthened and confirmed by and through faith.

Lutherans have a lot to offer but I fear that Luther and his legacy are plagued by his inability to acknowledge the Spirit and his need for the flesh. Spirit and flesh are linked but scripture clearly states that the spirit is greater than the flesh.
"It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life." John 6:63

A saving faith is one that produces fruit through works. As James says, "Faith without works is dead" and in the same way, works without faith are useless. True belief dictates behaviors, so works DO NOT justify but they do signify and express a living, saving faith. So a desiring of baptism is not a means of work but an evidence of saving faith, we are therefore saved through baptism in that we recieve it by and through faith, not in that it creates the faith that saves us but that the faith we have recieved creates the baptism.

[AReformedBeliever]

This sounds like the reformed perspective Dr. Cooper.

[JosephNR]

If baptism saves, and you are baptizing infants. Do infants that dont get baptized go to hell

[Catholic-Perennialist]

Baptism is sympathetic magic. Perform a washing ritual with a precisely worded incantation and a corresponding cleansing will ocurrr in the soul and your allegience is tranferred from the kigdom of this world to the kingdom of heaven.

As above, so below.