Is Provisionism PELAGIAN Heresy? | A Response to a Calvinist with @Soteriology101 & @IdolKiller

Drew and special guests Leighton Flowers of @Soteriology101
and Warren McGrew of @IdolKiller engage with a blog entry called "Are Provisionists Pelagians? by a Calvinistic brother named Colin. They discuss whether or not Provisionism can be considered "Pelagian" or "Semi-Pelagian" primarily interacting with the Second Council of Orange. Asking questions like "Is this authoritative for us?" and "which of the Canons are we allowed to affirm and deny without being called 'Pelagian'?" they walk through a few of the Canons and the language of "infusion and inspiration of the Holy Spirit" discussing whether or not Provisionism can fall broadly under its premises without affirming the Arminian-Calvinist doctrine of "Total Inability/Depravity"

📝 Read Collin's Full Article Here ⬇️

❌ Flowers' Original Tweet below⤵️

#Provisionism #Pelagius #ChurchHistory

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[JohnK]

The amount of cognitive dissonance that it takes for a determinist to claim that what God has determined is a “damnable heresy” is astounding!

[andrewlineberger]

Over 3 hours..Stoked ...Thankye guys from Denver NC

[jeffreybomba]

Compatiblism: You make a cheap RC car that can only turn left, then drive that car to an intersection, and when it turns left because you made it incapable of turning right, you get upset and smash it to pieces.

[AlexanderosD]

"I'll start using Semi-Pelagian, when you start calling yourself Semi-Gnostic.." Leighton.
That's a good comment.
When talking with Calvinist friends, I'm often immediately dismissed as
"Oh you're just semi-pelagian, you're just arminianist, oh that's just modalism, oh that's just synergism..."
But when I mention, Calvinism has similarities with Augustinian manichaen gnostic ideas, they get all ruffled.

There's always a tendency to quick box in the opposing argument into a neat little generalized category, instead of listening and properly have an understanding of the argument before saying why you disagree.

[sharonlouise]

So good! Loved every minute of it! Thanks for making me laugh (again) with the clip of Eric with the pink glasses and tutu on! I think what wearies me is that Calvinism seems to over-complicate Scripture and what it says. I also appreciate Dr. Flowers caution with "agreeing" with what was said by stating, what do they think that means. I think this is wise for us as we dialogue with others to ask them to clarify what they "mean" by their statements. Love Warren as well because he's very insightful and is a deep thinker. Love you too Drew because I see Jesus in you and His love for others. You have the heart of a servant.

[truthtransistorradio]

One thing they don't understand is that just because God has revealed the truth to someone and given them the ability to have faith, doesn't mean they will use it. Some people have the ability to get a job, or pass a class. God gave them that ability, but that doesn't mean they will use it!

[cecilspurlockjr.]

Why does James White want to watch brother Leighton spin on his head wearing a pink tutu ?

[jeffreybomba]

Calvinists call everyone else a Pelagian when there is more surviving evidence (written by Augustine and his buddies) that Pelagian was framed by the father of Christian Determinism. There is also more evidence written by Augustine himself, that proves his “Christian” systematic of determinism is pretty much identical to the gnostic systematic he held to for 10 years of his life.

[ericedwards]

Mike Winger's video clocks in at over 11 hours and has chapters in the description. I think he released it together since it's a single study...and he has one more to finish the series!

[mindtrap]

Calvinists point to a council to call my view heretical . My questions 1) Why start there in church history and not further back? 2) Why appeal to church politics at that time and suppose they are authoritative for that time? 3)Why appeal to a council who would condemn you and with whom you disagree on other issues. IE if you can do it, why can't I? 4) Why call me a heretic when saying you disagree is enough?

A schism in the church body, is one that creates walls which call one side non-christian heretics. Why insist on inserting dividing lines to kick people out of the kingdom? Especially when we are talking about "How" something comes about. That is like debating the mechanics of Christs death and resurrection, and saying one is unchristian because he thinks Christ mainly died from the beating and you think it was something else. That is a fairly arbitrary standard to call one who professes the life, death and resurrection of Christ as savior.. an unchristian heretic.

[mannycano]

Good week! first two of my favorite theology geeks and now three of my most favorite theology geeks 😉 all-in-one place. nice

[MarkRidlen]

It's interesting that "Original Sin" pretty much just meant the hereditary transmission of sin until Augustine, which added Imputed Guilt and Total Depravity into the verbal baggage.

[MarkRidlen]

Pelagian accusations can contain many logical fallacies: 1) Argumentum Ad Populum - heresy/orthodoxy is decided on by popular opinion. 2) Motte and Bailey fallacy (moving the goalposts) - even Pelagius didn't adhere to what he was accused of. 3) Special Pleading - remember that the same council that condemned Pelagianism also affirmed Infant Baptism. 4) Appeal to Force - you will be ridiculed at the very least (historically you may have been burned at the stake)

[primeobjective]

Calvinists are not after truth, they're after a WIN.

[gracemercywrath]

1:30:00 I laughed so hard! Well played. But you left out the spinning on your head part.

[ReArmApologetics]

Great Video! As Reformed Arminians, we are often labeled as Semi-Pelagian, even though we affirm Total Depravity and believe that God's Grace, Prevenient Grace, is the first step in salvation. My understanding of Pelagianism is that Pelagians believe people are born good without the blemish of original sin, can seek out God on their own without God's assistance, and can reach sinlessness, complete sanctification, in this life. Based upon that, I would have no evidence to charge Provisionists with Pelagianism, nor Semi-Pelagianism (whatever that is supposed to mean). In my estimation, Semi-Pelagian is a boogeyman Ad Hominem leveled by Calvinists to anyone who challenges the TULIP.

[BenjaminButler-zscm]

About 36:00 mark. We as believers need to be so much more humble and generous building each other up, not tearing each other apart.

[ericedwards]

Warren for the win with the bathroom dad joke!😆😆

[cecilspurlockjr.]

All things aside, I wish I had a dollar for everytime I've heard the word term pelagian. 😊 or even a quarter actually.

[lukegowdy]

Provisionists are usually rejecting both synergistism and monergism. The early fathers did believe in synergism. But synergism is not having gospel and being able to believe. Instead, it’s the ability to believe the gospel because we are aided by God.

Quoting historians that say the Fathers were synergists as much an argument against Provisionism as it is against monergism, if history is being used as some kind of argument.