Turretin Fan @TurretinFan Vs Dr. Kurt Jaros @veracityhill : Is Provisionism Semi-Pelagianism? EP 278

#debate #jesuschrist #theology #provisionism
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[believer]

6:30 “for ppl to come and be entertained?” I thought it was to come to the knowledge of the truth.

[amos]

This debate really put a stake in the idea of semi-Pelagianism. The only reason to keep using it is to have a handy pejorative label.

[CBALLEN]

Isaiah 55:11 (ESV): 11 so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth;
it shall not return to me empty,
but it shall accomplish that which I purpose,
and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it.

When the Gospel goes out to some and they reject it, it's because that's what it's purpose was in their case.This is just one reason
why Calvinism is true.Gods Gospel is meant to save His Elect and at the same time, harden the hearts of the goats.

[victorrockhill]

This debate is excellent at exposing Provisionism's achilles heal of poor nuance and scholarship.. Having read Flowers' book, I can say it's a view that is highly problematic and unnuanced to where if you would like to criticize it, they leave enough room in the margin to dodge your point (it also included awful scholarship... quotes from websites, poorly reasoned categories and unexplained suppositions)..

But if Flowers cannot speak to what provisionism really teaches then why do so many people listen to him? In a video he posted on Piper, he affirmed that people with large followings are accountable... Therefore, his view is fair game as an accurate adherent to core tenants of provisionism. If those core tenants are semi-pelagian, then perhaps we should just be more nuanced and call Flowers a Semi-Pelagian whereas some provisionists may not be. The defense Jaros gives is merely an academic dodge... Poor scholarship and even poorer biblical foundations is why everyone should reject this view.

[Godfrey]

The PROVIDE acrostic needs to be punted to the stratosphere.
It is a half decent memory tool that needs a lot of improvement

[paulanchor]

If Pelagius was orthodox why are Provisionists complaining?

[williamphelps]

So basically, "Semi-Pelagian" is meaningless. Sounds about right.

[CoffeeCoffeeCoffee]

I do not like how broad the PROVISIONALIST view is.

It has to be more narrowed down.

[paulanchor]

Every label is pejorative from the viewpoint of those who are outside the group which the label defines.

[nicholaspaul]

Calvinism is Baalgate and calvigod demonic doctrine

[IdolKiller]

Jaros ftw. SemiP is nothing more than a vacuous club and pejorative

[CmRoddy]

The PROVIDE acrostic is intentionally broad. That’s how I see it, at least. It seems to be intentionally broad to make it impossible, if not very difficult, to pin it down and push back against it. It’s designed to be slippery, like nailing jello to a wall. And to me, that’s concerning. Dr. Flowers loves to talk about how “Calvinism is unfalsifiable”as an argument against Calvinism, and yet his own views shift and sway so much that they are still under the PROVIDE acrostic but not enough to hold him to it.

[paulanchor]

Provisionist grace is not supernatural. It is purely historical. It never invades the present. The idea of illuminating grace in Provisionism is just something dreamt up to make it look as if God by this particular activity on his part is causing the gospel to make an impact on the unbelieving heart or mind of the sinner and that this activity is somehow necessary to faith. Once this camouflage is removed nothing is left in view except full pelagianism.

[bromineandtungsten]

I think the debate title is guilty of begging the question. Perhaps it should have been "Calvinism is gnosticism."

[paulanchor]

Do Arminians view themselves as being to any extent pelagian? Calvinists would perhaps describe them as being semi-pelagian.

[timffoster]

Marlon, I completely agree with your closing comments. The commenters on the Soteriology 101 YT channel are hostile, viscious and intolerant. I actually don't mind that - it is what it is, and people can choose whether or not they want to join the fray. But the fact that Leughton makes no effort to reign them in strongly suggests to me that he doesn't mind it - that they're speaking his heart. It's one reason (of several) that I don't think he's genuine in his presentation of Provisionalism. I think he hates Calvinism and Calvinists, and that's why he can't change the subject, and won't reign in his "children".
Wisdom is known by her children. Dittos for poison.

[JohnQPublic]

Turretin Fan wouldn’t know what Semi-Pelagianism or Provisionism was if there were videos of them running over him in a Mac truck!

[christopherskipp]

Since this debate will never be settled in this world, why do the respective camps insist on beating this dead horse?