The Problem with 4-Point Calvinism

[DrewbaccaStarWars]

Atonement isn't limited, God died for every man. Whats limited is people believing in Christ.

[fernandomarcandali]

What about 1 John 2:2 ?

2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

[HillbillyBlack]

My story…

I grew up a pastors kid, I prayed some “sinners prayer” at 7 that did nothing. Lived for me for 35 years. Sex, pharmaceutical drugs, alcohol, parties. I Grew to be agnostic, filled with hate, anger and lust which slowly accreted over years- decades. I LIVED and LOVED “sin”.

All i had was Just passive conscience but no pressing desire to care. Up until May 2022 i was a sexual addict deep in Porn addiction on the verge of cheating on my wife. I was talking to hookers/ old girl friends. I hated my wife, my marriage, i was verbally cruel to her and my kids. Classic hater of a “God who creates hell” kinda person and mentality. In fact that was my chief gripe.

“What kind of God does this and that…..”

“No good God would ever send good people to a hell”

I was blind and in my blindness i only knew God was real. But that “Jesus” part was a hard sell. I became very evidence driven. Needed proof.

Ironic given i was raised a PK. My Dad didn’t “fail”. But do realize our example to the lost isn’t what saves. Jesus has said multiple times

- No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

- I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word. Now they know that everything that you have given me is from you.-

The Father gives those who are saved to the Son. I know this may be an alien concept for many, but I lived a life dead in sin and I was unable to choose God. I was aware but I didn’t want him. There was too much excitement in the sin i enjoyed. So when God gives to his son those his son saves, those he gives he draws and those he draws NEVER resist the draw. They can’t. The draw can be a moment or a period of time. For me it was a period of time. Approximately 120 days and it was gradual and building up to a crescendo. I even once asked for forgiveness before I was saved. I said “Lord I believe but you’re going to have to save me with my sin. I love doing what I do and you’re just going to have to save me while I do it. I cannot stop. ” I acknowledged the truth but wanted my sin as well. This was about a month and a half before I was saved and It did nothing.

We always think that the human mind has the capacity to resist the reveal of who God is. God draws and then with a free will choice we choose?? This is where it boils down to the definition of the draw. If no one can come to Christ unless his father draws them and threw that draw they are guaranteed a “rising up” on the “last day” (our physical death), then that guarantee also guarantees the choosing of Christ.

So the draw is a particular strategic supernatural powerful moment rather than a passive understanding of knowledge. Intellect only gets us so far as realizing there’s a creator. The draw of God is you standing in a field watching a nuclear bomb go off a mile away. You can’t run, you can’t hide, you can only beg for forgiveness because in that moment you realize the depth and scope and damage of your sin. That bombs heat wave is your sin coming your way and the only thing that can save you is God.

There is no choice in the moment because choice requires intellect and the draw of God is him sticking his hand in your heart and ripping out that Stone heart. You are his before you ever thought you chose him. What you perceived as a human choice was just our limited human way of understanding what had happened. No one turned away the extra parachute from a friend free falling with you just to fall to their death. There is no choice when you were predestined before the world began.

…even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will…

There’s no scriptural evidence of the dead having a free will choice. Our freedom is being free from the bonds of sin which introduces a limited free will under the grace of God. -Hebrews 12:5-8


Right after my wife’s mother died My Dad sent me a book about Near Death Experiences. (NDEs)

(Imagine Heaven: by John Burke)
(After Death- movie adaptation)

Contrary to the seemingly biased position of the book title, these stories were very compelling. Compelling enough that everyone saw the same man of light which resembled what everyone seems to say was the Christ of the Bible. I read the Gospels several times. Research older writings predating Christ. Through months of trying to prove Christianity wrong I Realized from this emotionally crippling moment the severity of my situation, the steep hole i was in, the damage I caused…God was real, that Jesus part was real, and at that moment I had to make a choice. The more real he was proven, the worst I felt. The bomb heatwave was getting closer and the clarity of the mushroom cloud was getting clearer.

But is it still really a choice if death is the alternative with an eternity in hell? Not even the dead in sin would choose such a thing. That’s why it’s not really a choice.

I was a liar, adulterer, deceiver full of pride, hate and anger. I treated my family like crap and was verbally abusive to my wife and children. On my face i weeped and cried to God in belief. I cried out in a pool of tears in my home office after everyone had gone to sleep…

“PLEASE GOD SAVE ME IF IM EVEN WORTH I am wrong. I don’t deserve you, but i believe.”

sobbing in a river of tears, shirt drenched, i layed there repeating that over and over begging him for almost an hour.

I honestly didn’t recite anything. I was desperate for change. At a point of failure scared out of my mind id gone “too far”, i thought i was unredeemable, i needed help but had nothing to offer.

I didn’t want this darkness anymore. This pit in my mind and heart was too much. Choosing Jesus wasn’t a passive moment but something i felt no choice in. I knew he was THE truth before i believed. In my blindness I rejected him for my lifestyle and the things that I wanted for me. But at this moment..It was him or die. I was at a point willing to give up all sin. to give everything up if he would just save me. I just didn’t know how to stop it all. I arrived at his feet with nothing but sin and emotional blood on my hands. My unforgivable offenses.

I got very little sleep that night…After begging him to save me, Id NEVER felt forgiveness like this. Life after that night has been like I’m a kid in a small wagon and God is pulling this red wagon through a beautiful forest. Id get distracted, get out of the wagon then be confronted by a bear and quickly get back in the wagon.

The more sin i refused or fled from, …the safer i felt. Sexual sin was unique though. Overcoming this has been much different than anger or lying. It was less “overcoming” and more running from and preventing.

Through pain and suffering, today I’m porn free (which did take some serious Mathew 5:29 effort and gradual time), day one i dropped all contacts with those i was about to cheat with. I blocked them all. I confessed it all to my wife who forgave me. Since May 22 its been exponential growth. A craving for scripture and a challenge to keep proper understanding clear in my mind. I went from dispensational theology to a clearer exegetical understanding of the word of God in a matter of two years. I went From basic milk theology to being called a Calvinist simply for believing the Bible.

This all happened 2 years ago and has never let up in desire to read, pray and seek more. There are layers to Christ not even the “church” talks about that is deep, connected and is continually revealing.

Home healing is on going and as much as I wish that would be Overnight, that is a God timing. It’s infuriating that we’re not brought into the loop of his thinking but that’s how it has to be otherwise faith would not be faith.

[DavidTlovesAbby]

Calvinist preaching the gospel to his neighbor:
“I have good news! There’s a decent chance that Jesus died for your sins!”

[mikemcphail]

Almost every argument i have had regarding limited atonement has revealed that the actual issue is election

[pitoshighlights]

A Tulip is a beautiful flower but a very dangerous doctrine...

[YuGiOhDuelChannel]

If the Atonement is unable to actually save anyone on its own then it is limited in power, if it is actually able to save someone on its own but not all go to heaven then it is limited in its scope. No matter how you look at it the atonement is limited.

[OliverToal]

I disagree with all 5 points of Calvinism but I'd say limited atonement is one of the most egregiously against scripture.

[austinp]

Atonement may not apply to unbelievers, but it’s certainly available to them.

[victorcritelli]

a 4 point Calvinist is a person who does not understand Calvinism

It is a house of cards that falls when any point is taken away

[briancasey]

With you brother, 5 pointer here. All 5 points are interelated. If you deny one you deny them all. God is sovereign over all salvation.

[hollyrodriguez]

There is no such thing as “limited atonement”. Scripture says exactly, that Jesus came and died for every man and that God does not harden the hearts of men or keep them from following Christ, that man hardens his own heart against Christ and Christ gives him free will to do so and allows it. We are not slaves. Calvinism is not Christianity. It goes against scripture.

[laserfalcon]

They goto hell because they didnt believe on the Son

[chrono]

I think you misunderstand when someone says Jesus dies for all. It’s not that someone believes that since Jesus went to the cross that all people are automatically saved, it’s that all have the choice to be saved or not. Now, since Christ went to the cross we as humans now have to respond to that. Either to choose damnation or salvation, and that salvation is not of us but of God but the price has been paid, the gift is given should we choose to accept it.

[ReligiouslyIncorrect]

I am a 0 point Calvinist. I was heading down the road to believing in Calvinism and found that it gave me absolutely no assurance of my salvation, no hope, and constant inward introspection. Jesus died for all men, John 3:16. God did not choose which individuals would be saved but already knew beforehand who would be saved. Man can choose to be saved but in their natural state, they do not want to turn to Christ. That’s why the Holy Spirit must convict sinners. Believers do not persevere in the faith themselves. It is God through the power of the Holy Spirit who preserves believers for all time. I will never accept Calvinism. It is another false doctrine of men. We need to take off the rose colored glasses and see the Bible as it really is and not look to man’s opinions.

[nathanrobbins]

Unless you’re a universalist —-> gang

[mattbean]

So we are to believe Jesus died for everyone? That Jesus satisfied God’s justice for all? How, then, can anyone be found guilty and condemned if Jesus was the propitiation for all? If Jesus died for everyone and satisfied God’s wraith against all, how can God find fault with anyone? That’s double jeopardy, which would make God unjust. This also undermines God’s wisdom by suggesting his plan for salvation wasn’t good enough, his love not saving enough. Its like purchasing ice cream from a vendor, and walking away without the ice cream. Foolish. If God planned for all to be saved, and thus died for everyone, this suggests his blood and sacrifice were insufficient to save all he died for. That his blood was wasted on those who rejected this atonement. “No”they will say, “God gives us the option of receiving his saving grace. By our own free will.” So basically saying God’s love only gets us so far? That it then befalls us to do the leg work and receive salvation? Foolish. Salvation belongs to The Lord, not us. To suggest we achieved this victory, even a small slice of
It, is false. All things belong to God, all glory belong to God, not us.

[protestanttoorthodox]

Holy Orthodoxy baby. 1 point- Follow Christ and build His church

[lolersauresrex]

“If I get to define the terms in a way that changes what they commonly mean, surely you can agree with me?”

[chrisjohnson]

I think the term throws people off. Because they apply their own definition based on what they think it means. I'm a calvinist and before I was one that term weirded me out. I liked the term particular redemption better. But now that I understand I still wouldn't use the term when trying to convince an arminian of the doctrines of grace because I think it can be a stumbling block for them. I would rather talk through John 6, Romans 8, and Ephesians 1 and bring up those terms later when they are convinced by scripture. However when I'm talking amongst my own circle we all know what those terms mean so it's fine. I hope that made sense.