Does God 'Love' The Non-Elect Of Calvinism?

A clip from my conversation with Leighton Flowers.

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[christianlivingandlearning]

The Father sends the rain on sinner and saint alike. ❤
The Father blesses the fallen with children He stitches together.
Actions speak for themselves.

We will know the tree by their fruits.

[primeobjective]

"Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God." -Romans 5:2

It says "we obtain access BY FAITH, INTO grace"

Calvinism teaches the reverse, "We obtain access by [irresistible] grace, INTO faith"

[mikelyons]

Great discussion. This system needs refuted. It impunes the nature & character of our Heavenly Father, making Him an arbitrary Evil Step Dad & Puppet Master. That said LF creates a conundrum. If God randomly chooses some & not others...that is limited/limiting/a limited atonement.

[bobbymichaels]

I love children. But do I love my neighbor’s kids the same as I love my children? Nope. No sir. My love for my children is greater than my love for children in general. Wouldn’t you all agree? My love for my girls is more intense, more passionate, greater care, greater concern, and on and on.

The greater picture of this is Christ’s love for his bride, the church. Yep. God loves sinners. But his love for his blood bought children is extremely magnified in every way compared to his love for those who do not know God.

This special intimate love for Christ’s sheep is clearly seen throughout scripture, Old and New Testament. It’s everywhere.

And those he redeemed by his blood, those people love God back. “We love him because he first loved us.” That verse was written to believers, not unbelievers. John 17 was written to us, his bride, not those still lost in their sin.

Yes. God loves sinners. But God loves his people, his children, his sheep, his bride in an intimate special way that is greater than his love toward his enemies.

[christianlivingandlearning]

Also, instead of attacking TULIP which will only shut down the minds of those your trying to free. Like Adam and Eve fleeing from the presence of the Father in the garden. They'll see an attack, when we see bondage that needs liberating. They're scared. Not taking shelter in the Fwther refuge. Alone.

Its vitally important we let the Word do its work. The Spirit will convict them. Trust in that my brother.

Heb 4:12, Proverbs 3:1-8, John 16:5-11.

[freeguy]

1 Cor 10:13 proves every Calvinist wrong. God's promise to every believer is to provide a choice when tempted. A way out to be able to endure a temptation and NOT sin. But, if God determines you to sin even once, that way of escape did not exist and this verse makes God a liar. God is not a liar, therefore, determinism is false.

[johnriegle]

"Regernation precedes Faith" Is Calvinism in a nutshell. Because this is the case, Calvinism is immediately exposed as a heresy, for this reason. Regeneration is only used twice in Scripture. Once, by Jesus referring to the Last Day Ressurection. 2. The second is by Paul in Titus 3:5, and there it says that we are "saved" through regeneration. Meaning the Calvinistic axiom of 'regeneration precedes faith, turns into: 'Salvation precedes faith' That is a new Gopsel, which means it is a Cursed gospel, which is no Gospel at all. Titus 3:5 is the only scripture we need to eviscerate Calvinism. It's really that simple folks. There are others, like Romans 8:23, but Titus 3 is all we need to see the Demonic Elephant in the room.

[jchan]

We are all incapable of perfect righteousness (ie living a sinless life). so I guess we are all victims also and hence we are not guilty of sin. Every Christian has the same dilemma about human responsibility. It isn't unique to Calvinism. Why can't most people see this? This is a simple fact that cannot be ignored. Human responsibility can never be adequately explained. Leighton knows this but won't admit it.

If our choices are not determined by our desires then we have no intention or motive behind our decisions. It is our in most desires that shape our intentions. Without intent there is no moral significance in our choices. A choice is neither good or bad inherently. You cannot prosecute a person for a crime without a motive. A choice without a motive is random. Human responsibility is incompatible with random decisions.

[SpiritofAloha]

This is like debating fan fiction as if it's canon.

[ryandionisio]

Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."
All a man can do is ask for mercy and it is not a work to be used as part of the saving process, God saved paul in road to damascus to kill christians, God have the say who ever gets saved.
Flowere is a king of analogy, analogies that don’t line up to the bible, Gods mysteries is unfathomable.

[cjnav]

Answer: ( with a question ):

Who did Jesus die for?

Geez, what an ignorant title

[heavenbound---]

Can people choose by their free will not to be slaves to sin?

[brentonstanfield]

The problem with Leighton’s analogy at about 6:00 (ie putting nodes in someone’s mind) is that it completely skips over the fact that God is the CREATOR of all men and knows from the moment He creates exactly what they will do and can change it if He wanted.

If Leighton (someone who has not created EVERYTHING for his purposes… with omnipotent power to accomplish any outcome he desires) controls someone, then of course he is responsible for it. To whom? God. He must give an account to God why he did that… and how it served the good. Responsibility is a function of authority. Leighton answers to God because this is HIS world.

But God, who creates the whole world for His purposes, is accountable/responsible to no one. Keep in mind that God turned Nebuchadnezzar into a “cow” who grazed in the field like a beast. He controlled his mind. It was after God cleared his mind and gave him back his sanity that Nebuchadnezzar said this:

Daniel 4:34-35: At the end of the days I, Nebuchadnezzar, lifted my eyes to heaven, and my reason returned to me, and I blessed the Most High, and praised and honored him who lives forever, for his dominion is an everlasting dominion,  and his kingdom endures from generation to generation; all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, and he does according to his will among the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand or say to him, “What have you done?”

God is “RESPONSIBLE” to no one. He is not required to give ANYONE an account. That is the whole point of the end of Job where God gives to Job no answer for why these great calamities befell him.

[ManassehJones]

The carnal appeal to emotion is always off the charts when Leighton attempts to use natural man logic to tell everyone how he wants God to judge him based on his "abilities" to believe and to make "good moral choices." He is so adamant on God holding him "copable" for his abilities to choose, its almost boastful.

Dont worry. If you want to be judged based on your moral ability, your free will choices, God will grant you that, just as he granted the reprobates request for Him to leave them alone. Trust me, if you have confidence in Self Determinism, like Leighton does, not only is Christ dead in vain to you, but the power of Gods grace is irrelevant. Not a good place to be in.

I'm trying to stay on point here. It's just so difficult to even diagnose what the point exactly is with all the completely ridiculous analogies which has absolutely nothing to do with the point Leightons trying to make.

My head is spinning in circles every time I listen to him. He never fails or disappoints in me saying...."What in the world is this man talking about?"

[brentonstanfield]

His point about competing desires at about minute 7:00 is fine, but nobody denies that. Nobody denies that one desire (ie to eat cake) can be overcome by a greater desire (ie to lose weight). But that is still deterministic, you always choose according to your STRONGEST desire at the moment of choosing. That desire might be emotionally generated (eg a person yells at someone in a moment of rage) or rationally generated (eg someone wants to yell at someone but is able to think clearly and reasons that it is better to hold their temper). Regardless, all that demonstrates is which desire was strongest in you at the moment or choice. Thus, our choices tell us something about the state of our heart, our nature. Our choices REVEAL our nature (ie what we are) because they come from our nature.

This is why FAITH is the PROOF of our new birth. Those who have a new nature, ie who have been born again, have FAITH in Christ. That is why good works are PROOF of a genuine faith. Because they are the proper FRUIT of our new nature. That is why Jesus can say in Luke 6:43-45:

For no good tree bears bad fruit, nor again does a bad tree bear good fruit, for each tree is known by its own fruit. For figs are not gathered from thornbushes, nor are grapes picked from a bramble bush. The good person out of the good treasure of his heart produces good, and the evil person out of his evil treasure produces evil, for out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks.

We are the determiner of our choices. Our choices come from WHAT WE ARE. But God is our creator and He and He alone determines WHAT WE ARE.

[brentonstanfield]

God “loves” in some sense everyone. He gives to all men life, breath, and everything they will ever have (Acts 17:25) and uphold their existence at every moment. But “love” is not some “uniform” or “static”concept. It is an equivocal or relative term. Clearly, God loves Christ above all men. Clearly he loves the elect who are in Christ who receive grace for eternity. He loves the non-elect by giving them grace every moment of every day of their appointed lives, but then it ends with their death… upon which all grace is lost.

It is in this sense that the Scriptures can say “Jacob I loved and Esau I hated”. Jacob received the promise, Esau did not. Jacob received MORE GRACE.

[jwtre]

Funny that Calvinists are the ones accused of bastardizing scripture when it’s actually the opposite. In fact there are plenty of channels like this and like Flower’s whose sole purpose is to explain away the endless amounts of scripture that confirms reformed theology. If Calvinism isn’t true, why does it live rent free in the minds of these scripture butchers? They should just consider these doctrines to be based on a lie from Satan like any other false religion and move on but they are so pathetic that they need to parse through every verse on predestination and election (which are endless) and try to refute them. When they realize they can’t explain away clear scripture they have to try to poke holes in the logical framework in the doctrines of graces. (As a point of interest: it’s not fully logically consistent from our limited perspective. That’s why faith is required) These Bible butchers are proof that God gives people over to their reprobate minds and blinds them from the truth. Imagine not wanting to believe God’s revealed truth so badly that you become one of these sad individuals who are most likely not saved.

[jarrodbutts]

“And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.”