Why Calvinism is Wrong About Romans 9

Link to Dropbox with all recorded sessions and any remaining live sessions through Zoom will be sent through email.

Starts live July 11! You can access live or recorded.

[Seraphim-Hamilton]

Link to Dropbox with all recorded sessions and any remaining live sessions through Zoom will be sent through email.

Starts live July 11! You can access live or recorded.

[patricklennon]

The Bible needs to be read as a whole. Calvinists seem to forget Jeremiah 18, which also uses the clay and potter image. The chapter talks about how God reacts to the clay’s repentance and nations that God planned on destroying would be spared of they turned to the Lord. This points to free will.

[Theosis_and_prayer]

My friend was Calvinist who ended up becoming Christian after they studied the Early Church Fathers.

[augustdreammusic]

““For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.”

The most popular verse in the Bible spoken by Jesus literally defeats Calvinism.
Keyword from Jesus here…”WHOEVER”

BELIEVES HAS ETERNAL LIFE

[account]

The freedom of the will is something that is kind of mysterious to begin with... I just know that I won't be telling my potter what to do with all this clay any time soon

[andrewjoseph]

Interesting argument, however I disagree with your point that the passage is directed solely at Israel. The verse you quote, Romans 9:16 is directly followed in Romans 9:17 by this "For the Scripture says to Pharaoh,  'For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.'" Notice how the example Paul uses is not Israel or a Jew, but a Gentile, Pharaoh. Paul further substantiate that this is his intended example by repeating verse 16 in verse 18.

[alext.]

You are incorrect. All of Romans 8 is about an individual person's salvation. And Romans 9 (when Paul was writing there were no chapters) is a continuation of Romans 8 on individual salvation.

[liammcelroy]

Calvinism is also wrong about Romans 7

[james]

I've got to say that I really appreciate your work even though I am not EO myself and have the typical protestant disagreements. That being said Ive learned a great deal listening to you. Have you considered any more debates recently?

[rudyferrell]

God is in total control, he is sovereign and I'm so thankful that he is....

[paulcochran]

Calvin came along a lot later than the doctrines of Grace which teach us in Ephesians 2.8 and John 1, 1 Corinthians 1:26-28 ( not many wise mighty noble but God chose the weak . . ) Romans 9 and many other places that God chooses people for one thing and another and that man, even according to Arminian theology held by John Wesley and others, man without God's grace, is not able to make a decision for God because he is depraved. When people come at you with fancy explanations other than the plain meaning of any Scripture, beware. Don't necessarily reject it, but beware. The doctrines of Grace include our unworthiness and inability to seek God without his grace and that ultimately his grace is responsible for our adoption into the family of God and that is forever PTL! God does not unfriend you, he does not unfamily you! There are many verses that both support this and make people doubt this but people need to accept them both as being scriptural truth and not lean on fanciful contortions ("lean not on your own understanding") to make them reconcile. It's not necessary-- simply believe like a child! God's child!


What kind of father would adopt a child and leave him to feel that he's not really going to be kept in the family? What kind of father would kick you out of the family or make you understand that someday he would kick you out of the family if all the circumstances don't line up by the time your life is over. What kind of father? Well, the Bible is clear that our birth into the family of God is Not by our choice and yet, there are verses that by the kind of LOGIC that Armenians invariably use to counter Romans 8 and 9 (I won't say Calvinism which came along 1500 years later but which superficial Armenians would like to believe sprang out of nowhere- It's pretty easy to shoot down that straw man after all) might imply that arminianism is true. Let them both stand! They are both true but they don't contradict the fact that we are placed in the family of God by an adopting Father who just like he did all the way through the scriptures, chooses one to do/be this and another to do/be that, and that without him choosing you or me, our vileness, our falleness, our running from God- just like Adam and Eve in the garden- would forever prevent us from wanting to join that family were it not for GOD'S overarching will, and thank God for that! We SHOULD thank God for that! ie those of us who are saved! God hardens some and he extends Mercy to some. None of us would either do it that way or make this story up. But, it's in the Bible and it's our duty to believe it, and not our logical or illogical inclinations (prov 3.5, 6) Why is that so hard? The Fallen nature of man who wants to be on the throne and worships the concept of Man's Free Will (over God's) which is not to be found anywhere in the scripture but has been repeated so many times that it has come to replace foundational Christianity which has believed from all time- from Romans and from John 1, 1 Corinthians 1:26-29*** and many other passages that salvation, faith, adoption are wonderful gifts from a sovereign God!!







The problem should be resolvable by believing both. In other words, God gives us faith and it becomes OUR faith God, gives us righteousness and it becomes Our righteousness. Ephesians 2:8.9 should help people because it is a gift of God not because of works. There are only two positions. Either you - by your brilliance, virtue, something else, merited your situation into saving Faith or its entirely a work of God. Then do we have to work out our salvation with fear and trembling? YES! If God has already chosen, do we still need to evangelize the Lost? YES! If God tells us we have to endure to the end to be saved, do we have to endure to the end to be saved? YES! If anyone out there wants to read a very beautiful exposition of who God really is and what he really expects, and not just polemic about this (narrow) topic, read J I Packer's book Knowing God- a Christian Classic that unfortunately has not been in the hands of every Christian to read, reread, and dust off and read again perhaps every 6-12 months. The default position of man has always been from the time of Peter and Paul (and Adam and Eve in the garden!) to attempt to earn our salvation in some fashion or another and that is entirely unacceptable to our God and Father who adopts us as his children- or he doesn't! Our job is to Simply believe his word but our carnal hearts require constant retraining!

[LindseyDisney]

Romans 9 is saying that it's not your will to be saved. Therefore, your will does not determine your salvation. Your will did not determine your belief in Jesus. You cannot save your self. Only God can decide to save you. That's why he's the Savior.

People have misunderstood freewill. You only have freewill when you're doing the will of God. But Jesus said that he who sins is a slave to sin. People who are slaves are not free. But Jesus is the truth, and only the truth will make you free. Jesus Christ sets people's minds free so they can believe God (because faith comes by hearing the truth). When you start believing Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, you are doing the work of your Father in heaven (which is simply believing the Son).

Freewill is when you do the will of God, and only God can set you free. It's starts with your mind. God frees your mind. You can't free yourself. I give all the glory to God for my salvation and no credit to myself.

The word "predestinate" is in the Bible (see Romans 8:29-30). You can't get rid of it. All one can do is deny it.

[Hello-bnyc]

Rather than talking about Romans 8 which is talking about individual Salvation and which leads Paul to Romans 9, you guys have to read backwards to derive your explanation... not good

[abjoseck]

What a simplistic conclusion Bro. Your conclusion creates tension between the God of Israel vs the God of Christianity is a false bifurcation!

[crazydavey]

They did not stumble as though to fall? God can unharden some (not all) of the natural Jews hearts so they will accept Christ and be added back onto the Olive Tree.

Because God hardens or softens a person's hearts, the choice in who ultimately gets saved (or not) is sovereignly Gods!

[crazydavey]

Convoluted reasoning. Ephesians 1:4 proves the doctrine of "sovereign election".

[kimberly]

Great take! I studied the fall of Israel and this really spoke truth!

[jarrettesselman]

I do not have an opinion regarding predestination. It is predestination, that is what I know and I know it because the sovereignty of God ordained that I know it. Lest I boast. Ephesians 2:9.

For no other reason than simply His good pleasure, God chose some for election to Sonship, And others to destruction. He needs no other reason than the sovereignty of His good pleasure. Revelations 4:11.

Everything God does is perfect, with no care whatsoever about your definition of good and evil. Psalms 18:30. God is incapable of evil because everything God does is good. If it is God‘s sovereign will to smash me into the dust of nothingness, then that is good, because, all things work for the betterment of God’s people, all things. Not some things, not half of the things, not even an overwhelming majority of things. All things work to the betterment of God’s people,  Every bit of it. Romans 8:28. If I’d be found wicked, that too works to the betterment of God’s people. If I’d be found wrapped in the righteousness of the blood of Christ, that too works to the betterment of God’s people. If I could separate myself from the love of God, then, Paul the apostle would be found as a liar. There is no power found anywhere within the created order that can separate me from the love of God, that would include my choices. Romans 8:31-39.

God is in control of all things, and if you deny this, you deny the sovereignty of God. If you find this hard to comprehend, good, you have found God to be sufficiently ineffable. 2 Corinthians 9:15.

Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father.” Matthew 10:29

No matter what, God did not give His people a set of principles and then tell them He would deliver them from their enemies and evil once they follow those principles. God delivered His people, by grace, while still in their wickedness, through the Red Sea, and from their enemies, established them, and then gave them principles. God is in control of all things.

He parts the waters and calms the storms. It is HE who has said, “let us go to the other side”. Mark 4:35

It was never based on their choices. The Hebrew people did not choose the exodus and they did not choose the parting of the Red Sea. The disciples did not choose the savior, and the calming of the storm was not based on their choice of attitude.

Yes, a resounding yes, He also controls the storms. Be in awe of God, The Sovereign. Luke 8:22-25; Matthew 8:23-27; Mark 4:36-41: John 6:16-21.

Before the first offspring could be born, Adam and Eve failed to keep God’s law, aligned themselves with Satan, and elevated the creation over their Creator. It is important to remember the facts of Genesis 3. God did not cause this pair to sin, but neither did he stop them. Though he permitted them to sin, Scripture uniformly lays the guilt at the feet of Adam (Hosea 6:7; Romans 5:12–21).

At the same time, Scripture tells us that God scripted that they would Fall and that the world into which Christ would be born would be a world ravaged by sin. Consider these words in 1 Peter 1:18–21:

. . . you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your forefathers, not with perishable things such as silver or gold, but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot. He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you who through him are believers in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

In this statement, Christ was “foreknown before the foundation of the world.” The use of the word “Christ” rather than Son, or Word (as in John 1), indicates Christ’s human nature was foreknown before the Fall ever happened. In other words, before God said, “let there be light” and “let us make man in our image” (Gen 1:3, 26), he had decreed to save a people through the Incarnation of his Son.

And what is more astonishing, Peter speaks not only of the Incarnation but of the Lord as “the lamb without blemish or spot.” In other words, in the corridors of eternity, the Son of God was foreknown to be the lamb of God who would take away the sin of the world (John 1:29). This is why Peter speaks of Christ’s “precious blood” as the means of salvation. In his divinely-inspired understanding, Peter explains that before the world began and sin came into that world, God intended to send his Son into the world as a perfect man to save imperfect men and women from their sin. This is the heart of the gospel, but by implication, it means God ordained sin in the world.

God IS and IS NOT the Author of Sin

Combined with Genesis 3 and James 1 (God is the Father of lights who does not tempt anyone to sin, vv. 13, 17), we must hold two assertions, the same that Jonathan Edwards expressed above:

With respect to the sovereign decree of sin, God is the author of sin.
With respect to the responsible cause of sin, God is not the author of sin.

In the sense that God ordained the end from the beginning (Isa 46:10) and predestined everything that will happen on the earth (“. . . having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, Eph 1:11; cf. Pro 16:4), he is the author of sin—meaning, he is the sovereign God who has decreed all things.

[Nebulous_Encounter]

I was laying in bed last night trying to sleep when I suddenly got a thought about penal substitution. Jesus, during his ministry, often forgave sins. If his death on the cross was required for God to forgive sins then Jesus couldn't have forgiven sins until after he died and resurrected. So did he forgive sins during his ministry or not?

[lespaul]

The "lord" of Calvinism is Lucifer