INTENSE Discussion on the Papacy (Cordial Catholic x Gospel Simplicity Crossover)

Do Catholic arguments for the papacy hold up under scrutiny? In this passionate yet cordial dialogue between Dr. Gavin Ortlund and Joe Heschmeyer, the arguments for the papacy are examined in detail, including was there was a bishop in Rome in the first century? Is apostolic succession valid? What evidence is there for a three-fold office in the church? Was Peter head of the apostles? And so much more. These two were able to go back and forth, delving into Scripture, the Church Fathers, and the modern definitions of papal infallibility and universal jurisdiction.

Dr. Gavin Ortlund:

Joe Heschmeyer:

The Cordial Catholic:

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About Gospel Simplicity:
Gospel Simplicity began as a YouTube channel in a Moody Bible Institute dorm. It was born out of the central conviction that the gospel is really good news, and I wanted to share that with as many people as possible. The channel has grown and changed over time, but that central conviction has never changed. Today, we make content around biblical and theological topics, often interacting with people from across the Christian tradition with the hope of seeking greater unity and introducing people to the beautiful simplicity and transformative power of the gospel, the good news about Jesus.

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Austin Suggs
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Video Stuff:
Camera: Sony a6300
Edited in FCPX

Music:
Bowmans Root - Isaac Joel

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[TheT]

I grow up in a small town of Mexico were all my generation were and are Catholic. It was when I moved to USA that I found out all different Christian denominations. I thank God that I didn't get confused and stay with my faith strong. I wouldn't play with that.

[fredericthieltges]

I love how humble Dr. Ortlund is. It amazes me how strongly someone can disagree on such important matters and still be so kind and loving. I definitely can see Christ working in and through him. I so appreciate his call to us listeners to read for themselves, in the bible and the church fathers! To me(and that’s obviously subjective) it feels like he is really trying to see Catholicism at its best, while Protestantism is not seen at it’s best...overall I am so thankful for you guys and would love to learn more through your ongoing conversation with Dr. Ortlund. Glory to god

[Custodes]

Austin's icon collection keeps getting progressively larger. Before long he will no longer have a bookshelf, but an iconostasis.

[bigfootapologetics]

Dr. Ortlund has raised the esteem of Protestantism as a whole in my Catholic eyes by his strong endorsement of Christian history as a whole. This channel (and some of the related ones) have convinced me to subscribe for future content, cross-tradition, Protestant, or otherwise!

[sherrywhite]

I was away from the Catholic Church for 25 years until I got to the place where I got low enough to really seek the Lord. I started listening to Pastor Fred Price who just passed away---rest in peace Pastor. He said, "it's not enough to follow me on television, but you have to be part of a local church". I started looking with no intention of returning to the Catholic Church; however, He led me to a Catholic Charismatic prayer group and the praise and worship practice therein. A year later I returned to the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass during Holy Week. The Lord along the way revealed various things like the importance of the Brown Scapular devotion, the Rosary and the importance of the truths of the Catholic Faith and the teachings of the Holy, Apostolic Church. One thing I have learned, is that if there is anything about the Catholic Church that I'm struggling with, I ask Jesus and He has shown me clearly the truth. Otherwise, you will just spend a lot of time arguing over words. God bless!

[johnritter]

Gavin Ortlund is such a gift to us Catholics. One sword sharpens the other ⚔️

[ZanethMedia]

I'm 7 months late and I don't care bc this is SUCH a good discussion and as a Protestant considering Catholicism I'm so thankful for dialogs like this.

[ianwilson]

I am incredibly blessed to be alive at a time when there is so much great Christian content that I will never have enough time to listen to.

Also, cool sweater.

[dontforget]

Hello everyone, Protestant here.

Was really glad to see this dialogue, between a Catholic and Protestant having a civil argument.

Which I have seen angry Catholics and Protestants just lash out in anger which will help no one in the end.

[dudeeeeeszo]

Gavin standing his ground. I was waiting for this.

[ggarza]

Outstanding discussion moderated by Gospel Simplicity and Cordial Catholic! Joe and Gavin’s discussion was spectacular! Time really flew! Kudos to y’all!

[janiejackson]

Loved this conversation!! I would love to see a conversation regarding the Eucharist specifically. Thanks so much to you all for taking the time to do this!

[actsapologist]

First, I want to say the level of depth and knowledge on these two participants is staggering. Both, at various points, had me saying, "Wow, that's a great point."


Mr. Gavin is correct that an argument from silence can be a good one IF you can show that the person absolutely would have mentioned something given the context. But such argument can be significantly weakened if one can come up with a good reason why an author might not have mentioned something.

On the historical data: In support of his argument from historical silence, Mr. Gavin cited the Shephed of Hermas, Ignatius, and Polycarp.

Shepherd of Hermas: In Book 1, Vision 2, Chapter 4 he only mentions presbyters when he is asked if he'd given the book to the Church's leadership. However, in book 1, vision 3, chapter 5 he mentions the following offices; Apostles, bishops, teachers, and deacons. I don't think either of these citations represents a clean two-office standard which Gavin says it does. My understanding of that (as a Catholic) is that in the first citation he uses "Presbyters" the way we'd use the word "clergy" - an all-encompasing word. And in Vision 3 we arguably see the same structure as we do in Ignatius, only with the word "teacher" being used to describe priests.

In Ignatius, Ignatius makes it clear that a legitimate church is one which follows the leadership of its Bishop. It is true that Ignatius does not mention the Bishop of Rome in his letter, but he does praise the Roman church as being exemplary. It seems unlikely to me that Ignatius would regard the Roman church as exemplary of it didn't meet his most basic criterion for discipleship. This letter doesn't mention the Bishop, but it is also very different from his letter in other respects. Whereas all the others were meant to be teaching documents, in this one he says he has no teaching for them.

In Polycarp, we do see him making criteria for deacons and then for presbyters. One could interpret that as Polycarp asserting that there are only two offices in the Church. Or maybe not. I don't think it has ever been the case that someone becomes bishop right out of the gate. All bishops were at one time priests. So when giving the criteria for entry into these offices, perhaps Polycarp is only mentioning the entry-level offices.

In regard to the Biblical data: Mr. Gavin's approach to the question is a sound one. He wants evidence that Peter had a special office, and he wants evidence that it was successive. He sees evidence that Peter had a special leadership role, but doesn't see evidence that it is successive. I agree that there isn't explicit attestation that it is. However, I'm not sure that we should expect to find it because most of the New Testament was written while Peter was still alive. Instead, I think one can look at how the Apostolic authority was continued in something like the apostles - the bishops. From there a person can ask, "If Jesus saw fit to establish Peter in a special office, is there a reason why that office would no longer be necessary after Peter? The apostolic offices continue (with modification) in the bishops. Isn't it logical that Peter's role would continue (with modification) as well?" It is a plausibility argument, and perhaps not the strongest, but I think it is more plausible than saying Jesus established a special role for Peter and intended it to only last 30 years.

In regard to Mr. Joe's arguments: I think his strongest argument is from the second century lists. That is: If the regional mono-episcopacy is a development of the mid-to-late second century, why are people claiming in the late second century that this goes back to the Apostles and they can produce the lists of names. If the mono-episcopacy is something which had only developed in the previous 40 years... then what the devil are they all talking about? Where did they all get this idea? Mr. Gavin's only reply to this, it seems, is to repeat the claim that we cannot rely on second century evidence because it lays on the other side of some development (46:25) and when the first century is so silent. But that isn't a proper answer. The question is why all those churches would then turn around and say that's the way it has been all along. That question got no answer.

@1:42:58 - Mr. Gavin says it is unfair to compare the "Protestant Church" to the Catholic Church, but rather that we should compare the Catholic Church to a single Protestant denomination. Absolutely not. What is under discussion is the fact that we need a visible, infallible authoritative teaching office (a magisterium) to maintain Christian unity and orthodoxy simultaneously. Therefore is it completely appropriate to compare the Christian worldview which says it has one (Catholicism) to the one which says it doesn't need one (Protestantism). Mr. Gavin has not hesitated on other occasions to compare Protestantism to Catholicism when saying Protestantism confers advantages. Balking in this instance seems a bit situational.

In the end, he leaves Mr. Joe's thesis rather untouched. Does the dual command of unity and orthodoxy demand something like an infallible magisterium, or not? If not, then what is the alternative which gets the job done? Sure, the Magisterium only works if people adhere to it... but that is self evident and true of literally every authority, even God's authority. The fact of the matter is that the Catholic Church is united in a way which the Protestant world is not, and there's a real difference at the heart of it. Perhaps one shouldn't say, "The Catholic Church is united and Protestantism is divided." Perhaps a better way of saying it is that the Catholic world has (or at least claims to have) the thing which is needed if the Church is to feasibly be both united and orthodox. And this has enabled the Church to hold the center far better than the Protestant world has been able to while operating sans magisterium.

Either way, I would have liked to see Mr. Gavin grapple with Mr. Joe's thesis directly. Do those dual commands necessitate God also leaving us an infallible magisterium, or not? And if not, what is the alternative which accomplishes the goal? A person can say, "Jesus and the Gospel will unite us", but if one would pardon me for having the practicallity of an engineer, until Jesus comes again in glory to claim the obedience of the nations, that's more of a sentiment than a practical answer.

[lucaspacitti]

Cordial Catholic is THE definition of enthusiasm

[joolz]

Awesome discussion. I am a cradle Catholic gramma! I think some of this has to be accepted on faith. So much scrutiny can cause disbelief anyway. Don’t we just have to do our best to understand it and make our choice and have trust in God’s directive for our faith?
So great that you are having a respectful discussion and disagree politely! Love this! Thank you.👍✝️

[aaronmueller]

I have to say, I much prefer discussions like these to antagonistic debates. Keep up the good work!

[hughmungus]

It has INTENSE in the title so I'm looking forward to it haha. You've been putting in that work Austin!

[kyriosbooks]

Man, I would like to see Trent Horn/Jimmy Akin with dr. Ortlund
p.s. I must say, Joe did a great job. Defending catholic position is harder than vice versa, wether you discuss orthodox or protestants.
Nice job Joe!

[seanbyers]

Conversation aside, I appreciate your incorporation of iconography into your devotional life. Seeing as you hail from a protestant background, I think it demonstrates growth and discernment and lends a great deal of credibility to the sincerity of yourself and your channel.

[MobBossPenguin]

This dialogue is great for Christians of all traditions.

Very beautiful