The Case AGAINST The Papacy w/ Dr. Gavin Ortlund

Ever wondered what a case against the papacy might look like? In this livestream, Dr. Gavin Ortlund, a Protestant expert on Roman Catholicism, presents his case against the papacy.

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#Catholicism #Papacy #Jesus

[jordand]

Please do as many videos as you can with Dr. Ortlund. These are amazing. I will be sending in money with questions next interview. This was an amazing discussion. I’m a catholic but when I look for the opposing views. Dr. Ortlund is my go-to. He is incredibly gifted and uses these gifts for Jesus very well.

[Erick_Ybarra]

Dr. Ortlund has considerable objections . And his manner is commendable

E. Ybarra

[rosel]

Dr. Gavin Ortlund was recommended to me by my son. I appreciate his demeanor.

[amadeusasimov]

Gavin Ortland is fantastic at his thought process through this. It seems that he's able to break down what is being said and what the scripture is conveying.
Thanks for sharing this discussion.

[dannymcmullan]

From watching this it appears that Cameron has already decided to convert. He is simply looking for a logical way to justify his conversion in his own mind. He says he is in a journey like he is searching for the truth. Don't think that's totally true.

[TNFLHT]

Looking back at these... it's easy to see with hindsight Cameron already had his swim trunks on during this interview.

[CatholicWithaBiblePodcast]

Glad you had Gavin on. He's one of my favorite Protestants to hear talk on this topic.
Opposing views shouldn't remove charity.

[wootsat]

is Trent's 5-hour rebuttal to this out yet?

[zekdom]

14:30 - Popes and Mary

20:30 - silence in scripture
20:58 - silence, Constitution and President

21:40 - the early church writers
22:30, 38:18 - Augustine and Jerome

24:39 - the Trinity

25:50 - bishops
27:05 - the shepherd of Hermas

30:03 - Cyprian and the chair of Peter

34:37 - Ortlund on Matthew 16:18 and infallibility
38:50, 39:18, 49:13 - Matthew 16 and supremacy
40:36 - Augustine and the rock
41:57 - Even if it’s Peter…
47:50 - Cameron’s take on the surface-level reading

52:10 - Protestants’ lack of serious exposure from the other side

52:46 - Peter and leadership

53:17, 54:27 - silence and biblical inerrancy
53:50 - John 10:35
59:01, 1:00:00 - Pints With Aquinas

[JohnnyHofmann]

Dr. Ortlund is awesome! Great discussion

[luisr]

Never hear about Dr. Ortlund before. He is amazing!

[timmaddock]

Thanks for providing such a thoughtful and compelling case Gavin, and thanks Cameron for your efforts in setting up this up. Really helpful for my personal journey! More please :)

[lordzorg]

In my opinion Gavin killed it. Presented a very compelling case against the papacy seeped in both scripture and history

[kristopherbaptiste]

I'm currently a student at a Lutheran seminary and I think the idea of Papal supremacy is already discredited if you look at St. Paul's testimony in Galatians chpt. 2. Paul knew Peter personally and what is interesting is that he reported that there were three "acknowledged pillars" of the Jerusalem church, not one (2:9), and that Peter shared leadership with John and James the Brother of Jesus. It's also interesting to note that the number 3 isn't even exhaustive of the number of possible pillars, but that Peter, James, and John were simply the ones who were expressly named. Furthermore, Paul didn't even recognize these pillars, which included Peter, as having a special kind of authority over any other apostle, saying "And from those who were supposed to be acknowledged leaders (what they actually were makes no difference to me; God shows no partiality)" (2:6 NRSV), which implies that Paul saw himself as Peter's equal, along with every other apostle. This is further strengthened when Paul confronted Peter to his face over being peer pressured to not eat with gentiles in 2:11-14. For Paul to call Peter out implies an equal relationship between the two, as opposed to a superior/inferior dynamic, since he did not feel obligated to show deference to Peter's decision, but instead openly questioned and criticized it.

In Acts 15, we continually see a collegial style of leadership among the apostles that doesn't seem to imply any kind of special role to Peter. In fact in the Jerusalem council, it was James and not Peter that gave the final word and made the final decision (Acts 15:19) with the final decision being ratified democratically among all of the present members (15:22). I think this really discredits the idea of Peter being in a unique position of authority since he doesn't really seem to be leading from a place of unique authority. Rather he seems to be a leader within a cohort of other leaders.

Theologically speaking, this could be understood if one compares Jesus' statement to Peter in Matthew 16 with Abraham's call in Genesis. Both men were chosen because of their faith, because they responded positively to God's word. Thus, just as all people who posses Abraham's faith become heirs to his legacy (Gal. 3:6-9), all those who posses Peter's faith become active participants of Peter's blessings. Thus, while Peter received a unique privilege as being the first to confess Christ as Messiah, all those who follow Peter's confession participate in the blessings of that confession as well, hence every other apostle did become leaders equal to Peter because they too began to believe as Peter did.

[TheOtherPaul]

A solid case as usual doc! I wish you brought up the issue of Clement of Rome, whose letter has some peculiar features and silences that call the early papacy into question.

[augustinewilliam]

1Pet 5:1 Peter addresses elders not from a position of authority or superiority or supremacy, but addresses as a "fellow elder". Peter is one among coequal elders. And then goes on to point to Jesus as the "Chief Shepherd" - the one who alone is Supreme.

[Real_LiamOBryan]

Ortlund vs. Horn 7-hour debate, make it happen!

[JD-npxq]

One thing I've noticed about both Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox arguments is that they often beg the question that when the Bible / early church refer to things like the "church, " they are referring to the specific ecclesiastical tradition that they are a part of in exclusion of all others, when that is often the very question at issue.

[ogcrtxrftghjujhredztuljg]

Cameron: There is a little bit of evidence
Gavin's facial expression: What?

[stevenbiliai]

Thank you Dr Orthlund, it's my first time to see and hear you speak, definitely rare and gifted and inspired. Very well thought out and well presented. Glad you addressed the 'system' and not the members. Thank you Cameron for your ministry, its touching peoples lives in a real and important way. 'the Truth will set you free'. God bless you both.