Are Protestants Their Own Pope? w/ Trent Horn & Gavin Ortlund

Gavin and Trent answer a question about if Catholics are more, less, or the same judges unto themselves regarding matters of Doctrine.



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[tategarrett]

I just gotta say, I really appreciate Matt for posting both Trent and Gavin's responses here when it would have been easy to only show one side of the debate. ALSO! I finally subscribed to Pints with Aquinas after Matt so kindly asked "please subscribe, or you're a dingus!"

[errolugdamina]

The Catholic Church was the New Israel
which was based upon the Old Israel that
had the Prime Minister in Isaiah 22:21-22
pertaining to the keys 🔑 of the Kingdom.

[gatekeeper]

Martin Luther Said ... everyone with a Bible makes himself his own pope.

[kiryu-chan]

Epic debate. Love Trent and starting to love the other guy too. Makes me feel warm and fuzzy too.

[soteriology]

Paul said we are ambassadors of Christ. So I guess yes is the answer to that?

[sf]

At this point of the conversation where it's important to notice that reformationists are in a very bizarre position describing private judgment. On one hand they'll say they need to submit to the church, but they can't actually point to where that church actually is. One of the distinctive teachings of reformationism is the idea of total depravity which leads into the idea of irresistible grace. So they talk as if they believe in the teachings of the church especially on man's nature and his will but if you press them far enough eventually they will collapse into exhaustive Divine determinism. It is important to note that that is a key feature of the reformation, the rejection of the authority of the church based on several presuppositions one of which is total depravity.

[andonedave]

To me this is the big difference. Gavin says he submits to the Church. But as a Catholic when I hear “the Church” coming from a protestant, in my mind, and in reality, he can only be referring to his particular denomination and perhaps those churches that agree with him.

Authority is everything for me. A Protestant might submit to a particular denomination, but at the end of the day, what authority does his particular church have? It’s not infallible. So if one chooses to leave, you can pick back up with another fallible church. You haven’t really lost anything. I just can’t understand it. What authority does a protestant pastor or church have to teach me what authentic Christianity is that I don’t have myself? I just don’t see anything necessary or validly authoritative to protestant churches. What real difference does it make which Church I go to or if I even go at all if none are infallible? For me that would be a huge conundrum outside of Catholicism.

On the other hand, the Catholic Church does claim to be *the* authoritative and infallible Church. I believe her claim to be valid. That’s everything for me. If I reject or get myself separated from this Church, I’ve lost everything. The Catholic Church is human *and* divine. It’s the divine nature of the Catholic Church that holds me close to her. By divine nature, I mean, founded by Christ and guided/ protected by the Holy Spirit (infallible).

[davidr]

Good questions; both gave great answers.

[jamesholt]

First off, I just wanna say how much I appreciate Dr. Gavin Ortlund and his charitable responses. This is where I can’t seem to agree with him however, me being raised Protestant up to about two months ago, I have never heard of a Protestant denomination ever excommunicating or even rebuking a member of their Church to reconciliation. Never. Respect to my Protestant brothers and sisters in Christ, but what I found in the Catholic Church is more grounded, and that’s what I was looking for the whole time.

[issaavedra]

Hell is not a doctrine from the Church in the sense Trent was referring to. Is explicitly Biblical, unless you are talking about a particular interpretation.

[strikevipermkII]

I'd love to see Gavin defend the 'little c' catholic church because that makes absolutely no sense to me. The church is either completely universal or it is not. The idea that one church started by so and so and another church started by another so and so are the same 'church' because they agree on A, B, C doctrine just leads into circles upon circles on logic to defend. One Church, One teaching authority, one doctrine. Either you submit to that Church, or you aren't the 'church'.

[defeatingdefeaters]

Everyone employs private judgement, sure. But the Catholic advantage is that it enjoys a larger data pool from which to uncover truths. The other advantage is the Catholic ecclesiastical structure was established by Christ. ;-)

[Gio-ceob]

I love this video because these two men are setting a good example for Christians to have intellectual discussions in charity and fellowship. I know it’s probably gonna take a long while yet but I continually pray for eventual Christian unity with our Protestant and orthodox brothers and sisters. In this way we can be a true example of what being a Christian looks like. The way we behave sometimes online is uncharitable and wrong and makes us look like hypocrites. May Gods guide us to unity. Glory to Jesus Christ!

[saintejeannedarc]

Since we don't believe in the office of the pope, definitely no. We are all responsible for our guarding our own salvation and to remain steadfast. Catholics believe this too.

[ratatoskr]

I guess I missed the part where God had a key duplicator and made a bunch of keys for the laypeople.

[Justas]

The RCC has never officially nor infallibly interpreted the Scriptures. Therefore, the RC must interpret the Scriptures for themselves.

[rebekahzwink]

I like your videos as they very informative to me as a protestant. Question: how do you go about testing what the church says? Like, what if something was said that goes against what scripture says?

[TruthHasSpoken]

Gavin : "I submit to hell because it's the historic consensus of the Church"

Interesting this. Then too, be consistent, going back and submitting to the "historic consensus of the Church" on :

- The Eucharist being the resurrected body and blood of Christ.
- Baptism salvific, regenerative, how we are born again scripturally
- Infant baptism
- Intercessory prayer to those in heaven
- Salvation by faith and works of love (never by faith alone)
- Hold to what has been taught, by the Written and Spoke word.
- The Church, Catholic
- 46 writings in the Old Testament.

Reject 16th c men 1500 years after the apostles, who did not HOLD themselves, to the "historic consensus of the Church" and departed from the faith, all the while they disagreed with each other (Priests Luther and Zwingli, and the Catholic lawyer Calvin)

[ryanbeaver]

I’m not so sure it was ever intended for any Christian to have a Pope? Protestants and Orthodoxy reject the infallibility claims of the Roman Pope. It’s never been made clear to me Rome’s papal infallibility claims. How is one man infallible when he sits in a chair a certain way? I hope the next debate’s subject is the Pope.

[elf-lordsfriarofthemeadowl]

I know Trent and you are on each other's channels frequently, but why is his debate on your channel?