Calvinist can't answer the question!!!

Watch as John Piper tries to escape the tangled logical web that hopelessly traps every Calvinist! Are you trapped???

No one is claiming that Calvinists don't evangelize or believe in evangelism. That is the straw man version of the question that was given to Piper on a silver platter for an easy victory. We are talking about the logical implications of the system. The heart of the question is: "If God determines everything, why do I need to do anything?" Piper's answer was, "Because God determines everything." But this answer only confirms the concern of the one asking the question. Why do I have to do anything? If God determines the means and if I didn't witness to a particular person, this means God did not determine for me to share the gospel in that moment with that person, because that is what came to pass. If my choice not to witness comes to pass, and God determines all things that come to pass, it logically follows that God determines my choice not to witness. The true objection is to a philosophical framework that teaches there are situations and times when God causally determines for me not to share the gospel, when Scripture teaches us to be a light at all times, not to hide our light under a basket. If Calvinism is true, and what the argument is getting at, is if God determines all things that come to pass, and I don't shine my light today, this is only because God sovereignly and unchangeably determined that my light would not shine today, and I could not have done otherwise. And so, you can't just repeat the premise of the opposing argument as evidence for why the conclusion is false.

Premise 1: God determines all things that come to pass.

Premise 2: My desire (not) to evangelize is a thing that comes to pass.

Conclusion: God determines my desire (not) to evangelize.

Piper's answer was simply Premise 1 restated as evidence for why the conclusion is false. But this only serves to confirm the conclusion. If Scripture teaches us to tell everyone about Jesus, but God didn't determine me to tell (person x) today, that makes Calvinism anti-evangelism (this is the argument) from the perspective of the one who should have evangelized, because God commanded me to shine my light at all times. As for me, during my 18 years as a die-hard Calvinist, this eventually provided a numbing, even therapeutic effect when I failed to share my faith, knowing I could not have done otherwise, knowing I wasn't the means, and God will save His elect.

[freeguy]

The mistake that Calvinists make is this: our faith does not merit salvation. It is the door which accesses grace. Faith establishes grace. If God wanted, He could reject our faith, but He determines that it would be by faith that we are saved. In Calvinism, those who are saved ARE better than their neighbor. God makes them better so that they can believe.

[arkrainflood]

turtles all the way down...." but he still really did not answer the question. every calvinist that passes by the beaten and robbed victim could legitimately claim God did not ordain themselves as the means to aid the poor guy.

[ccchhhrrriiisss]

After having journeyed from agnosticism to faith in Christ, I began studying the Bible. I vaguely remembered some of the Calvinist arguments from some friends presented to me (even before I believed). However, when believed, I laid aside all of the things that I knew (or thought that I knew) about faith and I began to study God's Word. I read it repeatedly -- cover to cover -- over and over again. In all of that time, I never could grasp this notion of Calvinism.

While there are some truths that are within the Calvinist belief set, the underlying notions are just, well, not present in the totality of Scripture. In the Old Testament, many of the very elect (chosen by God) fell into all kinds of sin -- including idolatry and disbelief. It's why they were freed from captivity and yet wandered the wilderness for forty years with many never went into the Promised Land. It's also why Israel and Judah were carried BACK into bondage and into captivity. Even the captivity really traces its roots back at the time of Solomon falling into idolatry. Moreover, the New Testament epistles are filled with exhortations, instructions, commands and even warnings about falling away. There are countless passages reminding and warning believers -- yes believers -- about a coming judgment.

The Calvinists will attempt to explain away those warnings. Yet, in the end (literally), the Book of Revelation contains those very warnings. Idolaters and others will not inherit the Kingdom of God. The Calvinist can argue that those who do those things were never "predestined" to be saved. However, I'd argue that God spoke to Solomon (more than once) with "IF" and "THEN" statements. When God uses an "if" and "then" statement, it seems that free will is a thing and we are not just those "bubbles" of every thing that God designed not only for a purpose but that God designed for evil. I suppose that the term "predestined" is difficult to grasp when it is confused with "predetermined." Even "predetermined" is difficult to grasp when it is supposed that God designed life, death, judgment and eternal punishment with absolutely no choice and no chance of escape.

It makes you wonder why the Book of Job exists. Why would Satan attempt to meddle in Job if God had designed AND always wanted it to happen in that way. Yet, there was a discussion between God and Satan over Job. God asks Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job?" Temptation wouldn't really be temptation if it was designed and wanted by God. Yet, we know that God doesn't tempt anyone.

[johnjarrett]

We evangelize because Jesus commanded it . He said go into the world and preach the gospel . We don’t just evangelize who we feel like, we are commanded to preach to everyone . John piper teaches exactly what I’m saying . God is the one that chooses if those people we evangelize to will hear us

[beberean]

Thank you to everyone who took the time to comment. Even though we may disagree on some things, we are still brothers and sisters in Christ. Bless you all!

[Alfr]

It's contradictory to desire that no one perish but for all to come to repentance (2Peter 3:9) yet only choose to save an elect. This just being one example of why I reject Calvinism. It makes no sense to have a will of only choosing to save certain people but at the same time having a desire for no one to perish.

[beberean]

No one is claiming that Calvinists don't evangelize or believe in evangelism. That is the straw man version of the question that was given to Piper on a silver platter for an easy victory. We are talking about the logical implications of the system. The heart of the question is: "If God determines everything, why do I need to do anything?" Piper's answer was, "Because God determines everything." But this answer only confirms the concern of the one asking the question. Why do I have to do anything? If God determines the means and if I didn't witness to a particular person, this means God did not determine for me to share the gospel in that moment with that person, because that is what came to pass. If my choice not to witness comes to pass, and God determines all things that come to pass, it logically follows that God determines my choice not to witness. The true objection is to a philosophical framework that teaches there are situations and times when God causally determines for me not to share the gospel, when Scripture teaches us to be a light at all times, not to hide our light under a basket. If Calvinism is true, and what the argument is getting at, is if God determines all things that come to pass, and I don't shine my light today, this is only because God sovereignly and unchangeably determined that my light would not shine today, and I could not have done otherwise. And so, you can't just repeat the premise of the opposing argument as evidence for why the conclusion is false.

Premise 1: God determines all things that come to pass.

Premise 2: My desires not to evangelize comes to pass.

Conclusion: Calvinism teaches God determines my desires not to evangelize.

Piper's answer was simply Premise 1 restated as evidence for why the conclusion is false. But this only serves to confirm the conclusion. If Scripture teaches us to tell everyone about Jesus, but God didn't determine me to tell (person x) today, that makes Calvinism anti-evangelism (this is the argument) from the perspective of the one who should have evangelized, because God commanded me to shine my light at all times. As for me, during my 18 years as a die-hard Calvinist, this eventually provided a numbing, even therapeutic effect when I failed to share my faith, knowing I could not have done otherwise, knowing I wasn't the means, and God will save His elect.

[AndrewKeifer]

To put it another way: "If I choose not to do it, that means I wasn't determined to do it."

[BeauReese]

Can you share the original Q&A link pls? Wanna watch it without the commentary. Ty bro

[primeobjective]

12:54 -- "What are you going to say to God, at the Last Day, when HE asks you, 'WHY are you here?' 'Because I believed in your Son.' 'Right answer, & WHY did YOU believe in my Son, & your brother didnt?' What answer are you going to give HIM?"

What Piper has done, is made the CAUSE of faith as salvation not faith itself.

Calvinists don't care that you have faith, Calvinists care WHY you have faith, thus their doctrine of 'Irresistible grace.'

Piper places himself as the image of God and presupposes "Irresistible Grace" as the CAUSE of salvation instead of faith itself.

Jesus said, "YOUR faith has healed you", Jesus never said, "The CAUSE of your faith, has healed you" which is exactly what Piper believes, and so imposes his belief unto God by asking that question, "WHY did you believe in my Son & your brother didnt?"

The RIGHT answer within Calvinism is, "Because that was your immutable decree."

The refutation to that question is:

"Since WHEN is the CAUSE of one's faith 'pleasing to God' & not FAITH itself?"

[SojournerDidimus]

How about predestination is not anti evangelizing because us mere mortals have no clue whatsoever who is predestined, nor by what means God establishes that what He has predestined to come to pass? Since we are not (fully aware of Gods predetermined will, who *not* evangelize, as it just might be the means God has predetermined will cause this person to come to faith.

11:07 "I'm not going to witness to this person, because I don't feel determined to witness to this person in this moment, and God will provide the means through which that is accomplished" And this line of thinking is exactly *not* what John Piper is arguing for. The key is "feel", where the person with this thought is placing himself on the throne of God and prescribing to God what He has determined would happen. No, our feeling is not the end al and be all, bur rather God's predetermination is, and do not fall for the lie that we are somehow capable of perceiving His predetermined will perfectly.

13:30 How is God asking why you believed and your brother did not a rejection of free will? The issue is that you cannot answer this question without boasting in something. Either you boast in Christ as He predestined you, or you boast in yourself for choosing God. As we know that boasting in ourselves is absolutely not possible with grace, you should logically come to the conclusion that predestination must be true.

18:00 "God is responsible for our rejection of Him" Well, exactly, that is indeed the conclusion we come to. Isn't this exactly the scenario played before our very eyes in Job? Did Job's family die due to their own choices, or because God allowed the devil to kill them? Did not God rebuke Job for his complaints, as God was just to let Job suffer though this all? Yes, God is in control of what evil is allowed to happen, as the Bible clearly teaches.

[alexweiss]

Erasmus (Catholic proto-Arminian) - "Let God be good!"
Luther (Protestant proto-Calvinist) - "Let God be God!"

[makeitcount]

The answer is " it is God who works in us to will and to do according to His Will" period.

[orangeandslinky]

There is no one POTENTUALLY elect. God said he already has foreordained the elect. People don't have any idea who is elect or not. The power of salvation is IN the gospel. So we tell the gospel to everyone everywhere. God saves thru the preaching of the gospel to those that are elect of God. Who says so? God does. It pleases God that the telling of the gospel is foolish to those who are perishing. Why is it like that? We don't know! The free will people call all the shots and glory in it and boast about it. I DO have free will, but only to sin. No man seeks after God at any time.

[AndrewKeifer]

Notice how calvinists often say, _God "knows" this, that and the other._ They say _knows_ as if it has quotation marks around it. This is coded language for "causes." They don't admit to believing that knowledge causes, but the way they define sovereignty is exactly that.

[freeguy]

Calvinist: So sad, abortion is just so wrong and evil. Non-Calvinist: Doesn't God decree all things? Calvinist: Yes. Non-Calvinist: So if anything at all ever happens, then God decreed it to happen. Calvinist: Yes. Non-Calvinist: Then isn't criticizing anything that actually happens criticizing God Himself? Aren't you literally saying, "God, you shouldn't have done it like that"? In fact, can't you praise everything that happens (rape, murder, torture) since it will glorify God someday? Calvinist: ...Shut up. (To the Calvinist who is about to reply to this, please read the above one more time....)

[norbenricobacani]

Predistination for all people to love God and obey him, but many want to choose evil or darkness. God's offer his kingdom for those who fear him, love him and obey him.

[kevinwang]

I'm not sure I even understand what this "question" is trying to figure out. Sounds more like an accusation to me. This question presupposes that even those who are truly saved will not only have this thought, but will think and act this way. And not only that, it also presupposes that without us, God is unable to save those he wants to save. I don't believe Calvinism ever preached this idea in the first place, it's just all presupposed by people with other views. Calvinism never taught nor suggested that the ones God has predestined will be saved by _nothing._ He still uses us and other things to save even more of us. Also I have to add, Calvinism doesn't necessarily mean agreeing with everything John Calvin said. None of us can completely agree with another person on every single topic. So when someone says "I'm a Calvinist" they probably only mean a fraction of all the views John Calvin had.

The answer is simple, if you love Jesus then do as he says.
1.Just because God predestined some of us to be saved doesn't mean none of us have free will. Predestination doesn't mean God is actively controlling everything, or nothing. Can you choose to grow wings and fly? No, that's an option never given to you. Can you choose to not be saved when God decided to save you? No, that's an option never given to you. Do we have free will? Yes.
2.If you are always thinking "well if God already predestined some to be saved, I don't have to do anything" then you aren't saved.
3.If you have the thought but end up doing the good work anyway, I don't see the problem. I'm sure most Christians come across this question at some point.
4.God can use all (including evil) for good. How God saves those He has predestined is none of our business. He isn't obligated to tell us.

God always uses us to do His work without us even noticing. I'm convinced that if the biggest atheist sits on his couch and plays games all day, God can use even that to save a lost sheep.

I believe somewhere in John scripture says something along the lines of salvation is not by faith alone, but also by works. This may seem like a contradiction at first glance, but what John was actually saying is, as Luther puts it, "justification is by faith alone, but not a faith that is alone". If you really realize just how much God has done for you, wouldn't you want to get off your butt and spread the good news? If you've been homeless and in debt, but then someone takes you into their home, pays off your debt, and gives you food and water, then tells you that you can stay; wouldn't you want to pay them back? That's why Jesus said "if you love me you will keep my commands". Those who are saved loves Jesus, those who aren't don't.

*TL;DR* This isn't even a valid question in the first place, way too many presuppositions. And those who are actually saved wouldn't even be bound by this question. If you truly love Jesus then do as he says. *Why should we spread the gospel? Because Jesus said so.* Calvinism never told us to disregard Jesus' command. We can't cherry pick from the bible. *Just because the scriptures teach predestination doesn't mean we can now ignore Jesus.*

[laquan]

If God has choosen who does and doesn't repent and wills that none perish, why do some perish? Does Calvinism paint God as a monster? Hence, I'm am no Calvanist, rather simply Christian.

[soteriology]

Calvinism is fully mission oriented. John 3:8, God can regenerate anytime. We see in Acts 10, the Cornelius household was already made clean, before they even heard the gospel. But were not considered saved until they heard the gospel.