Exploring the Tension Between Calvinists and Arminians

[janmartjanea]

Understanding that God is in control of everything is the most liberating thing in this life, and this undeserved grace He gave drives me to worship Him, even in times when I don't feel like it!

[Christopher_Mang]

The best thing is to follow Jesus. He's above Calvin and Armin!

[constitutionalpesant]

"I am not gonna rise up over your word and tell this book what it has to mean "!! Praise God. We can handle the tough truths of the bible, we must submit ourselves to what it says, because it's God's living word, even though it's sometimes difficult. But we can do it brothers and sisters.

[MegaZiglet]

Truth be told, I never considered myself a Calvinist, still don't. I see myself as simply a Bible believing follower of Christ.

[Truth]

It seems to me that the Truth is somewhere in the middle. Between both thieves on the cross :)

[newstartdiscipleship]

Calvinism and Arminianism are both full of mystery.  In fact, I am convinced that the truth is in a mysterious blending of the two.  The idea that Arminianism has no mystery to hold is incorrect.  Both theologies wrestle with mystery.  

We have to hold to the mystery of a God who says "the Pharisees rejected the purpose of God for themselves" and also says "none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled." We wrestle with the mystery of a God that warns "harden not your hearts" and a God who says "I hardened their hearts."  

The coming down in one camp or another is a matter of WHICH mystery you wish to wrestle with: The Sincerity of God in his statements of (and warnings about) human freedom, or the Severity of God in his statements of determination and soverignty.

I absolutely love John Piper.  But there are plenty of Arminians out there who are also thoroughly "Bible" people.

[davidkugel]

If you look at church history, God has blessed and used both Calvinist and Arminian believers. John Wesley and William and Catherine Booth were Arminians used greatly of God. I don't know where Charles Finney fits in but he was not a Calvinist. Some of the finest Christian denominations today fit into the Arminian camp, the Assemblies of God, the Church of the Nazarene, the Four Square Gospel and the Free Methodists. In heaven after the Lord returns, there will be no Calvinists or Arminians, only believers, children of God. If John Calvin were alive today, he would not want people using his name like we do.
We need to see the big picture.

[bigtxbullion]

Came for the calvanist discussion, left with the most emotional description of Yaweh Ive heard in a while - ballast. Wow. What a fantastic descriptor. Our God is great and he is able. This guy is so humble. Never want to try to rise above His word just to win a debate. Great message!!!!

[SSJCyan]

work like an arminian, sleep like a calvinist

[jgmahurin]

I haven't been a Christian long but I find this Arminian/Calvinism debate absolutely fascinating. I really don't know where I am on this yet.
sometimes I lean toward Calvinism, other times, I would have to agree with an Arminian point.
I would disagree that Arminian teaching is based on philosophy as I feel both doctrines are scripturally supported.

Right now I'm thinking both Calvinism and Arminianism is right....and wrong.

[godngunclinger]

listening to a debate between a Calvinist and an Open Theist, I loved the scripture of both sides. I grew up in Armenian teaching and was never secure in my assurance of salvation. Met and married a girl who was raised in eternal security. I struggled with that teaching but because it was anchored in God's promise and not my job performance I was anchored in God's Word, I had a security I'd never had so that now I can evangelize!

[ronochow]

I had grown up with an Arminian type mindset. I was taught with that style of theology as well, and I lived by what I thought was the Word, but I did not understand it, I saw God as cruel, I feared Him, even though everyone taught that He was love and whatnot, I couldn't see it. I was afraid of losing my "salvation". I was very strong on that we had "free will" whatever that meant; having control and being able to work towards many things and failing. The biggest hurdle was for me to submit to the Word, and acknowledging God's sovereignty, authority and will above mine, not by my will but by His will. Everything I had learned from scripture, everything I had read instantly made sense, everything came together from OT to NT. It was as if God had opened up my eyes towards His scripture that I did not understand before. My belief also seemed to align with Calvinist points as well at that point. How can I have faith and trust in God if I can lose my salvation? To have assurance that He has done all that needs to be done, that He is just and righteous and loving towards whom He chooses is enough for me, that I can rely on His word fully and completely. To believe in who God says He is, rather than trying to make God fit into the paradigm of what I thought God is like or should be.

[BloodBoughtMinistries]

I have decided to follow Jesus and there is nothing any calvinist can do or say to change that reality. Calvinism is heresy. Calvinists are all deceived.

[MegaZiglet]

Before I ever heard of John Calvin, I was a Bible reader. As I learned of early reformers, I realized Calvin taught what I learned from Bible reading. I will never fully understand all of the Bible, but little by little, as the years go by, I understand more & more. I look forward to the day when I can meet Him face to face and & so many mysteries will be revealed.

[tonyparry]

I am NOT a Calvanist, but I greatly respect many of my Calvanist brothers & sisters. I pray for the divine revelation of God's Spirit daily!

[busybody]

So very glad I became saved, the Holy Spirit dwells within me and I know with certainty that I truly belong to God.
The gospel was purposely Made Simple enough for a child to understand so that all may come to know God, leave it to mankind to complicate matters needlessly. God matters, religion doesn't

[PotterSpurn]

This is a very interesting video, which has got me thinking about a number of issues with Calvinism and how we interpret the Bible. The problem remains the same for both sides (or any side not already mentioned here, e.g. Molonism, Lutherism etc.)

Piper mentions that we should take the literal meaning of each sentence and not try to 'read into it' by making it fit around a philosphical framework based on time, culture etc. That is a good approach to take, except that we would still need to rely upon the numerous human and sinful translators of the particular Bible we study who might too have interpreted the original scriptures in a way that suits their own philosphical leanings? Isn't that why the NIV has been discredited, the NASB more widely trusted, the Passion Translation totally trashed? Isn't that why some believers refuse to read anything other than the KJV?

Having said that, I can certainly see that to read a bible passage and then understand it to fit around a certain perspective already pre-determined by a theological systematic is equally dangerous. That's because we are effectively relying upon man's philosophical underpinnings to guide our understanding, and not the Holy Spirit. It is also an open wide door to manipulation and exploitation to shape a church to fit the preferences of leaders who formulate or adopt a certain theological perspective. We end up worshipping the leaders/founders not God - no matter how many times the Bible is read. Hasn't Calvin done the same thing, though? The Institute of the Christian Religion is man made interpretation of text, the Reformed Movement itself has many philosophical leanings used to formulate its understanding of The Bible, not just reliant upon The Bible (Craig-Lane). TULIP wasn't Calvin-made. So it is unwise to see Calvinists as being Bible purists who understand God's character and what is right and wrong as purely coming out of The Bible.

Basically, both sides suffer the same problem. Ultimately, I think that believers tend to veer toward an approach that best represents their own personality profile and their own way of thinking -especially as a new Christian, newly converted and not mature. Arminians are likely to be left leaning and creative whereas Calvinists are likely to be right leaning/conservative and literal. Arminians stress 'walking with the Lord' Calvinists 'obey the Lord'. Ultimately, it is the Holy Spirit that leads the way for the true believer, not the personality profile of the believer. We are meant to follow Christ, which implies move forward but stay behind Jesus. He leads, we follow; he knows, we don't; he is perfect; we are not. That too implies that Calvinists have mainly got it right, Arminians wrong. But have they? Theymake out God is a monster creator of all that is evil - at worst - he is sovereign - at best. Arminians make out God is a loving, good creator fighting Satan's evil - at best; but they feel that their free will gives them license to 'make up Jesus' to fit their own personal preferences - at worst. Both has good and bad tendencies toward over permissiveness and over legalism that can lead to error and, at worse, outright heresy resulting in Christ's bride become less of a church, more like a social club or a cult with some Bible thrown in to make it look legitimate.

Both are good if used wisely, both are bad if used unwisely. But should we rely upon man or not whether Calvinist or Arminian? I don't think so. God talks about the foolishness of following man's wisdom - no matter how clever, intellectual they are. So where does that leave any of us?

Relying upon Jesus, that's where!!

If you are in an Arminian Church or a Calvinist one, the Holy Spirit will guide you - a sinful, incompletely regenerate redeemed Christian - into the truth to solve those mysteries that Biblical inconsistencies all so often give rise to, resulting in many of us wresting with the truth in despair and ultimately forcing any one of his sheep in the true bride of Christ to cry out 'Abba Father' to ask God to lead the way. I have often wrestled with the confusing text around regeneration/redemption and whether we should still follow the law (but in Christ) or just accept that we are saved and not worry about sinning (there is none righteous, not one). Lots of Christians do that. We are left as confused as ever. Calling confusion mystery doesn't make our path any easier, but it does force us to trust, believe and at least repent of those sins we are aware of in the hope that the others we aren't aware of - and there are many - will be forgiven along the way.

That's the point of faith: we believe, trust and hope. We don't 'work out', philosophise to draw firm conclusions, or know for sure which theology fits best. I expect none of them are an exact fit to the absolute truth that solves those mysteries of God that Piper expressed in this video. Truth is, God is so sovereign that man's intellect can never be high enough to de-mystify the Bible, but God is also so sovereign that he wants believers to choose to love him. Arminans and Calvinists can't agree on both of those statements; it is either one or the other.

So both sides suffer the same fate. For Calvinists and Arminians - it involves a perfect God leading imperfect sinners who are trying to lead the Christian life. Whether we choose or are effectually called to Christ is neither here nor there, nor does it matter whehter we believe we walk with the Lord or obey him. Ultimately, that tension between our old natures and our new creation will cause us confusion and all that Calvinism and Arminiasm does is to throw light on how best to resolve that tension, not to show us who is right and who is wrong in how texts are interpreted.

[caseythornton]

Recent scientific discoveries in quantum theory is showing us that the universe is simultaneously predetermined yet uncertain at the same time, as per Heisenberg's Uncertainty principal. God does not operate on our concept of time. Eternity past, present and future are all right there with God as he is omnipresent in not just space but also time. We have such a masterful God that he planned it with sovereignty while still allowing us free will at the same time. We will not be able to understand these things until we are at home with our creator. For now it is better to focus on loving one another as Jesus commanded us.

[deborahfelts]

It's a silly argument. The Bible teaches both free will and God's sovereignty.

[cmdesign]

I’ve tried and tried not to be a Calvinist …. I finally gave in to the truth