Psalm 82 John 10 'gods' Mike Winger

Psalm 82 John 10

[utubewillis]

Heiser's interpretation makes much more sense for many reasons. You really have to twist "elohim" to make your argument work. Clearly this group in psalm 82 are not men. See also Heiser's podcast explaining John 10, also makes a lot of sense

[JLCProductions]

“Like men” undermines any interpretation that seeks to deny the supernatural aspect of the text.

[bradbrown]

Psalms 89 is not Jewish elders flying around.

Elohim in the midst of Elohim.

Heiser is right.

[jeffpratt]

Heiser is correct and goes a lot deeper on this whole area

[bengelfranco]

Yet Psalm 82 isnt the only passage tat speaks about the divine counsel!!!! Job 2. Deut. 32, and more…

[waleolamiju]

Check Michael Heiser's work, and other bible scholars like him.

[carolyngionfriddo]

If you want to understand psalm 82, look up Michael Heiser. His work is amazing and has enriched my reading of the scripture and understanding of the greater spiritual world that clearly exists and influences our world.

[ecuador]

V6-7 says, “You are gods, you are all sons of the Most High but you will die like mere mortals…..” These Elohim do not know death was a normal end to their existence and I would think they would be shocked to know that it now is. However, if those referenced here are humans, even rulers of any kind, death IS a normal end to their existence and I would think death ending their existence may be dreaded, but isn’t a shocking end to their existence..

Therefore, God in the first case this is a genuine sentence (like death for Adam and Eve type of sentence.) However, if these are descendants of Adam (mere mortals for which death is their end no matter what their rank in life) then this statement “you will die like mere mortals” is what was already anticipated, therefore this is not a NEW sentence. They were going to die “someday” anyway. Nothing has actually changed for them. As an example, the end is the same for a prisoner whether he serves one life sentence or two life sentences.

POINT: This sentence in V6-7 makes sense ONLY if those God is speaking to are Elohim (spiritual beings), not humans of any social standing.

[michaelglass]

why did you refer to those who hold that elohim are little g gods as cults? You used cults twice.

[bobbuilder]

My problem is that Elohim is not ONCE used of a human in the flesh. The closest is Samuel, but he was a spirit and thus a spiritual being. With Moses God says he will be a LIKE elohim not that he WILL be elohim.

[dimitartodorov]

Mike Winger doesn't understand that if Jesus is saying "other men were called gods" that works against the claims of Jesus "I and the Father are one". If Jesus wasn't God it would make sense for Him to say "guys, don't get angry, I am not blaspheming, even rulers were called gods". But Jesus obviously claims to be equal with the Father so Heiser's interpretation fits here the best.

[MrBlakeD]

What about the idea that Paslm 82 is written as an explanation that YHWH was no longer a 'regional deity' but that he had conquered the other gods to assume total sovereignty? YHWH was originally a regional deity, as noted in 2 Kings 5 when Naaman takes back two cartloads of Israeli soil, saying "there is no god in all the world, except in Israel" or when David was chased from Israel by Saul in 1 Samuel 26, David laments that he has been sent to serve other gods. They obviously didn't view YHWH as having power outside of Israel. I've seen people try to say that David personally wrote this Psalm, but I'm more in line with the academic thought that it post-dates the exile into Babylon, or perhaps in written while in Babylon as a means of allowing the Israelites to serve YHWH by giving him conquest of the other gods. Thoughts?

[Chris-mkzt]

Well, He is in glory, and you will be too. And we all are going to meet and spend eternity having fun with these topics! God bless!

[craigchambers]

Dr. Heiser not only does not see them as men, or even bad spirits, but as DIVINE beings, and that is the rub. Elohim our God is One. There are no other actual divine beings. I see it men who exercise authority as judges over people, and in particular application in John 10, as the religious bad judges of the Jewish people - the Pharisees. Verse 2 makes it clear that these so-called 'gods' are bad.

[Elvengem]

One of the main things that disproves Mormons is they say God the Father had parents. But they would have been gods or had some god create them since they didnt come from nothing. Isaiah 43:“You are my witnesses, ” declares the LORD, “and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me." Deuteronomy 4:35
You were shown these things so that you would know that the LORD is God; there is no other besides Him.' Micah 5:2 Jesus always existed.

[americanlostinvietnam]

The prophetic texts are always dual directional. Past and future, present and future, present and past etc.. The physical world replicates the spiritual world. So this passage should be seen as not only insight of a spiritual divine assembly, but also a tangible one involving God's chosen people. It is actually both at the same time. To deny Deut. and the dividing of the nations at the table of nations, and to deny that there were "judges" set over nations that caused men on earth to worship them as God is ridiculous. This is the whole scenario given involving the stars falling from the heavens, being judges that sat on thrones, and those thrones being emptied, then in Revelation John seeing saints sitting on those thrones as judges in Chapter 20.
How is it possible that anyone would deny this?

[Sons_of_Thunder.]

Problems/Responses

1) The angel view is no different than what the LGBQT Plus Communtiy Promotes. What it does is Refine marriage between a man and a woman. Woman was created from man, so angels can not marry a human woman and procreate with a human woman. Genesis 6 is a marriage debate and a creative order debate.
Look at the word wives in Genesis 6.
Genesis 6: 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of man were attractive. And they took as their wives any they chose.
Genesis 6:18 18 But I will establish my covenant with you, and you shall come into the ark, you, your sons, your wife, and your sons' wives with you.
Notice the word wives/wife, Moses uses this as marriage terms, again Noah and his household (House of Noah) are the sons of God, no different than Job and his household.



Your arguement is NOT with me, your arguement is with Christ. In the post it is pointing to Jesus, Jesus tells us who the gods/elohim of Psalm 82 are in John 10. Heiser's angels as the gods/elohim is totally false. Jesus is the ONE who fulfills the words of the prophets from the OT in the NT. Jesus is addressing humans (Israelites/Jews) in John 10, Humans (Isrealites/Jews) are being addressed in Psalm 82.

Psalm 82:6 I said, “You are gods, sons of the Most High, all of
John 10: 34-35 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods” ’? 35 If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be
When the verse mentions the word "law">>>law of Moses and "to the word of God came">>>God spoke and communicated through prophets like Asaph, this is totally in rerferrence to Humans/Israel/Jews. Jesus is the word become flesh (John 1), God no longer speaks through a prophet like Asaph in the OT, in the NT Jesus is now the Word incarnate speaking and repeating what God (Father) said from the OT in the NT.
The LANGUAGE does NOT change Jesus fulfilling the words of the prophets, whether the LANGUAGE is writtein in English, Hebrew, Greek and
Heiser was wrong on how he explained Psalm 82, Heiser Never fulfilled the words of the prophets of the OT in the NT, that would be the role of Jesus.
Even the context of how Asaph writes the Psalms he wrote supports the gods/elohim being Israel.

[yblackie]

I think I get what Mike is saying. Ye (Israel) are gods but Jesus is THE God. Like how David had many sons but Jesus is THE Son of David. There are billions of sons of Man but Jesus is THE Son of Man. So Jesus is the fulfilment of the promise given to Abraham, Israel etc.

[richardwashington]

So were the sons of God in Genesis 6 judges that had sex with women and made giants?

Were the sons of God in the heavenly realm in Job human judges translated into heaven?

I so want to accept this view on Psalm 82 and John 10 but I think we are doing the radical reactionary thing most protestants do to error. So we completely dismiss all the other instances in which that word elohim actually is referring to a disembodied spirit being or angelic being as the NT and LXX clearly use for explaining that word.

It can mean "rulers" or "judges" that are human representatives in one context or story but in another context or story it can actually be a spirit being or angelic being. I think we should have a mediating position here and not throw out the proverbial baby with the bathwater.

I do think I am repenting from the divine council take on Psalm 82 but it is clear that there was other uses of that term elohim to reference spiritual beings and somethings was happening in the ANE with spiritual entities deceiving the nations and causing them to create idols for worship.

[MaxS-bzyy]

This is a dishonest. You should read Dr Michael Heiser's UNSEEN REALM. Comparing translations is always a mistake. It's the HEBREW that counts.