Michael Brown & Jim Osman LIVE Conversation - Cessationism & Spiritual Gifts

Join us as we talk about whether or not the miraculous gifts recorded in the New Testament have ceased.

Jim Osman
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Michael Brown
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Christian Creators you need to check out: @JonClash @thisissalvation @TrinityTruth05 @whyjesusnetwork @jesusinfive @PastorJeremyCollins @Kdubtru

[KOSZG]

I am a continuationist because i believe Scripture. However, I do believe one of the biggest problems that the charismatic camp has is they almost never call out all the foolishness and false teachers on the charismatic side.

[Dave]

Interesting discussion - some of Dr Brown's arguments resonated with me even though I currently hold to a cessionist view. The problem is that even if some of his arguments are based on Scripture, the vast majority of charismania is peddling in false prophesies, false healings and especially false tongues. The latter just does not line up with the description given in Acts 2 and it is practiced in a manner that in contrary to the commandment given in 1 Corinthians 14:26-28.

I believe that prophesies on the personal level do still exist, where someone (not a "prophet") transmits a word to an individual which providentially orients them in the right direction. In church, the day before my previous wife died, she wrote something in her Bible that she said she wanted to shout out loud but she was too shy. I was shocked when I read it after her death. What she wrote has been of great comfort to me in my life : there was nothing doctrinally new in what she wrote, but it was pointing me to certain bibilical truths which should rule my life. On the other hand every single person I have seen who self-identifies as a prophet is a false prophet voicing their wishful thinkings.

I've also witnessed a miraculous healing where a pastor mentioned "someone" with a knee injury and he then commanded her leg to heal in the name of Jesus. We know that person : she had a really serious knee injury requiring a splint and crutches to walk, but we saw the same person dancing for joy that same evening. I believe that pastor has or had the gift of healing, but it is not something that he could will to happen. He had to be moved by the Holy Spirit to call out the person and the healing. The healing was a message to that specific person on that specific day and it is not a gift where he could decide to walk into a hospital and start healing people. I have also seen other pastors presumptiously commanding healing which did not happen. I think most of these pastors are moved by compassion but they are creating false hope.

Regarding the gift of speaking in tongues, I have never heard anything that corresponds to Acts 2. Also in certain congregations it seems that the majority have received this "gift" and nothing else which does not match the description given in 1 Corinthians 12. From what I have heard, I believe it is mostly learnt behaviour that people perform due to peer pressure and encouragement from the pastor. It would say that sometimes it is a genuine expression of emotion or gratitude, which would reflect a fruit of the Holy Spirit (for example joy) but not actual utterances from the Spirit. But why not just shout "Hallelujah!" ? What ever it is, it definitely does not edify the church as spiritual gifts are supposed to.

I believe these miraculous spiritual gifts are not sign gifts that identify an apostle or a prophet so in that sense I am cessationist. Also I believe that the gift is not something the person possesses on a permanent basis, but it is something that they are empowered to do or say at a specific moment. Some people may receive the gift and be able to use it on several occasions according to how the Holy Spirit wills it. Perhaps this is the way all the spiritual gifts in 1 Corinthians 12 are supposed to operate.

[lisashaw]

Love this discussion that is way over due

[TheGermdog]

This was good. I appreciate Brown and Osman. I’m clearer on the cessationist position now.

[shelleythomas]

Jim your patience was a pleasure to watch. Thank you.

[paulselvindoss]

I am a hypercharasmatic and now am a reformed continuationism but cautious. Great discussion by both of them. I respect both their views. Both me and my sister have similar discussions.

[GIJYT]

I have worked in ministry to the blind for around 40 years as a visually impaired person myself and my wife who is totally blind. I can tell you here in all the years I worked there and have still connections with this ministry, not one blind person has ever been healed miraculously. Not even in it's almost 70 years of existence has there been any miracles either of sight gain without human intervention.

[nyyfan]

Great discussion. It's more apparent to me that Pastor Jim is more concerned with the "Charasmatic" movement that is seen on TV and online. Dr Brown is a great debater and great person to have these discussions with. The last 2 mins of the discussion in my opinion summed it up perfectly 🙏

[JesseDavis]

Dr Brown has an incredible depth of knowledge into Scripture. I hope one day to have just a fraction of that knowledge. Great debate overall among Christian brothers who disagree on the finer points of doctrine!

[MommaBear_]

I am a Cessationist. I HAVE THE HIGHEST REVERENCE and HIGHEST VIEW of the HOLY SPIRIT! I know God works miracles daily. Every time someone is saved is a massive miracle. BUT having a low view of the HOLY spirit thinking he can be used as a stage prop to entertain the unregenerate at a whim by mere men is the most blasphemous thing ever!

[nancybenson]

I agree totally with Dr. Brown. Not for any other reason except it agrees with scripture. I haven’t studied other men’s or women’s teaching, just the Bible. And that alone is the reason I have to agree with Dr. Brown. Well done Dr. Brown. Glad to have your voice. I pray Jim Osman becomes a continuationist. The gifts are a blessing. All of them. ❤

[watergirl]

You never find the Apostles announcing beforehand that they are going to hold a Healing Service in a few days' time. Why not?
Because they never knew when it was going to happen. They did not decide, and it was not within their control.
Martyn Lloyd-Jones
(1899-1981)

[seanrathmakedisciples]

I was born Roman Catholic and after 35 years in the Catholic Church and I was born again on 24/10/1986 after hearing the truth of the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. God revealed to me that I was loved as Moses Abraham and Isaac and His word is true . I started reading the gospel of John and Acts. I knew that the believers would lay hands on the sick and they will recover. I’m still learning more daily and seeing more healing and miracles. Jesus never told us to pray for the sick but to heal the sick.

[pianomanny]

This was an excellent discussion. I was a Charismatic but now have moved to Reformed. I am very grateful that the Lord brought me out of the manipulation of that movement. I appreciate Pastor Jim very much as I have seen him with Justin Peters on several occasions. A few take-always for me:
Dr Brown continued to bring up that he uses the scripture alone? Does that imply that Pastor Jim does not? When Pastor Jim asked about whether prophecy was necessary Dr Brown replied that it was at which Pastor Jim replied regarding the sufficiency of scripture. This is a huge point for me. If the scripture is authoritative but is not enough then everything becomes subjective.
One last point that seems unrelated but goes to a mind-set, I know that Dr Brown believes in woman Pastors. If I lock myself in a room with just the Bible and read 1Tim2:12, won’t I come away with the fact that woman are not permitted to teach or have authority over men? Just a thought.
Also, what does Dr Brown imply about “going deeper” or “maturing” with respect to the exercise of gifts of healing? Did the Apostles have to mature and go deeper prior to performing the healings?

Thank you all for posting this. Looking forward to seeing the full discussion with Justin and Sam Storms.

[melchysomba]

I'm a cessationist, but dang I love Dr Brown's smile!!!
God bless you, brother!
Beautiful discussion!!!

[AJTramberg]

I always feel like these debates miss the elephant in the room....which is...are the gifts that charismatics point to real or not?

The ENTIRE point of SIGNS and WONDERS was to authenticate!!

The Charismatic movement should, by definition, be self-authenticating. Are Sign Gifts for today? Well, where are the accurate prophecies? Where are the miraculous healings?...Has a single quadriplegic gottem out of a wheel chair? Has anyone actually spoken a human language they werent trained in? Has anyone made a specific, unmistakable prophecy?

I think its a waste of time arguing over whether or not we think the Bible says gifts are for today, unless we are ready to admit that the so called signs and wonders supposedly going in regularly are never ever recorded. Its totally bizarre.

It is SO disingenuous of Dr. Brown to always point to unverifiable miracles happening in "some small village" somehwere in the 3rd world. If Gifts are notmative than they should be going on all yhe time in the USA, but we mever do, do we?

[geekwithabible]

It seems like there are spiritual cessationists and thoughtful charismatics. These two camps really seem to mostly agree, but their differences are in the finer details.

[DaddyKratosOfTheShire]

I watched the 4 hour talk and would watch months of need to start thinking harder and getting back into scripture over and over

[GTMGunTotinMinnesotan]

I really pursued cessationism as Jim discusses it, but the belief was far too philosophical rather than scriptural. I had to finally admit, uncomfortably, that I was wrong about the nature of what prophesy was/is. It's not easy because of how many wacky people there are, but there's no doubt full scripture support for continuation with caution and a Bible seatbelt. Awesome discussion men.

[paulbarrera]

Once again a Clinic displayed by Dr Brown!