Is Jesus Divine? James White vs. Dale Tuggy Debate REVIEWED

Is Jesus Divine? James White vs. Dale Tuggy Debate REVIEWED

Luis Dizon and Michael Lofton review the Trinitarian vs. Unitarian debate between James White and Dale Tuggy.

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[USSteelMain]

1:39:00-
Tuggy is _not_ playing "word games". He is drawing out how Trinitarian concepts don't make sense. If its truly biblical it will be logical. Trinitarians are showing their hand.. the doctrine doesn't hold up under scrutiny so just accuse the scrutinizer of word games.

[davidreagan]

I have been chug-chugging through the Summa since January and am positively beside myself with anticipation for St. Thomas' expositions of Catholic doctrine of the Trinity. So many mysteries of the Divine Essence lead toward and are, I expect, satisfied by It.

And, of course, the example It gives for our own harmonious communications.

[ryanb]

Trying desperately to learn about this very topic. I've become good friends with a Jesus-Only Unitarian

[curtisclaire]

Is that even a question? The earliest creeds and church would state that a person cannot believe otherwise and be saved. Of course Jesus is divine.

[sivad]

It bugs me that Tuggy misrepresented the Bayesian framework. Evidence only favors hypothesis 1 if the probability of it occurring under hypo 1 TIMES the probability of the hypothesis being true a priori is greater than that of the alternative hypothesis.

For example, if I'm accused of murdering my parents and I propose that an alien actually teleported to their room and killed them, the alien hypothesis may better explain the data. In fact, you could make up enough caveats so that it perfectly explains the data. But we know the alien didn't do it because we know a priori that aliens don't exist in our solar system.

[kjcdber]

27:45 Monotheism is a good example of a theological blind spot. Modern believers are brought up and conditioned to only see monotheism everywhere but can rely on just a handful of out-of-context proof-texts when pressed. Yes, those proof-texts seem completely obvious to you. But ask most scholars who don't have a horse in the race and they find it completely obvious and clear that the Old Testament is NOT a monotheistic text in the strict modern use of the term. Same story for many of the earliest Christian writers and church fathers.

[Mike]

The Hypostatic union gave us a Jesus with two natures. But the Bible does not support this. When the Word was made flesh he kept his identity, but became a man. So he was always God. However, Jesus did miracles, not by his own divine attributes, but by the Holy Spirit indwelling him. It was the Father working in him by the HS. Jesus, the perfect man, could not glorify himself with his own divine attributes! So when Jesus did not know the time of his return, he really didn't know, and was not just talking out of his human nature. If Jesus' natures were not divided, as Chalcedon claims, then he should have known, right?

[hntrbass]

At 43 minutes you're confusing "divine" with being the same being as YHWH. Ok, you wrote a thesis based on a work that argues that the messiah could be divine. So what? Was there any jew before Christ that thought the messiah was God himself, the creator of the universe? Clearly not.

[hntrbass]

I think the title is a little misleading. Should be called "james white sucked at the debate and didn't engage with any of Tuggy's points so let me rebut him for you". Try reviewing the actual debate next time instead of comin up with you own arguments against one side of the debate.

[hntrbass]

At about 8 minutes you in, you comment about How God can be negligent to let knowledge about himself go wrong for so long. You argue that the Holy spirit was teaching for the first few hundred years about this. This makes absolutey no sense. Why does it take the holy spirit so long? If Jesus knew who he was, then it would take about 5 minutes of his time to tell all his followers exactly what the triune nature of God means. He doesn't. Neither do any of the NT authors. Everyone that SHOULD know about the trinity is completely obvlious to the fact. Something so important about the very nature of God should be forefront of what Jesus and the apostles taught. And it is...if you're a unitarian. Jesus and the NT authors make it crystal clear that the father alone is God (john 17:3, I cor. 8:6) and that Jesus is God's Human messiah. Not God. It takes about 300 years of convoluted platonist fathers to confuse everyone and kick everyone out of the church who they don't like.

[euston]

The one true God _is_ love (1 John 4:8, 16). And the greatest demonstration of love is to *lay down one's **_own_** life* for others (John 15:13). James White's version of "God the Father" did not lay down his own life for anyone. And Dale Tuggy's version of "God the Father" did not lay down his own life for anyone. So neither James White's version of "God the Father" nor Dale Tuggy's version of "God the Father" is the one true God.

The one and only true God - God the Father, "THE everlasting Father" - is the unipersonal Spirit who "came down from heaven" _without leaving heaven, _ and who manifested _himself_ on earth in genuine human form, as _his own_ Son, so that he could *lay down **_his own_** life* for us, raise _himself_ from the dead, and give eternal life to all who believe on _him._

And the _name_ of this unipersonal, *self-sacrificing* Spirit is revealed to be the name which is above _every_ name: *JESUS.*

*1 TIMOTHY 3:16 (KJV)*
And without controversy *great* is the *mystery* of godliness: *GOD was manifest in the flesh, * justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

[carmelovella]

Jesus is not lieyer, He siad my Father greater the me, for God so loved the world he give his belonging son, , semple , God cannot not lie, , , why is this confusion, , there is not such 3 God's, , , , one God Almighty Jehovah, , and now the onitod , , the brothers of christ spiritual onitod 144, 000 brothers spiritual, , and one organisation of Jehovah and Jesus is the head, semple,