Arminianism and Provisionism | Theological Differences with Dan Chapa

Dan Chapa, a real life Arminian (!!), joins Drew to discuss The Provisionist Perspective's recent review of an "Arminians Take On All Challengers" episode. They will talk about Total Depravity, prevenient grace, the role of the Spirit in conversion, the nature of grace the the Scriptures, and a number of other things! You can find the original live broadcast as a patron member through the link below or by becoming a member on YouTube.

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[Soteriology]

Good discussion guys. Just one thought….

At around the 44 minute mark Dan brings up the hardening (speaking the truth in parables lest they believe) but then still concludes that they “have the gospel” so that must not be what’s missing, another drawing must be involved beyond the clear proclamation of the gospel.

You can’t have it both ways, Dan. Either the message is being hidden by means of parables from these rebellious Jews or it’s not. If it is then they do NOT have the clear proclamation of the gospel, they have a parabolic presentation meant to keep them at bay. You can’t claim they have the gospel and that the gospel is being hidden by means of riddles. It’s one or the other.

[jnau]

Some people are never "dragged, " but simply, by God's prevenient wisdom, see His goodness in the lives of believers and in nature, hear the gospel as children and believe. The "total inability" of "drawn" is baked in

[VeryBasicBible]

That was great for many reasons. Now we just need to have conversations with other Arminians, esp ones who say "Provisionists are NOT Arminians at all, they're not even like us, not even close".

And Drew in this video, plus Drew and Eric in the "Arminians take on all" review video, showed some places where they disagreed with, in various ways to various degrees, Leighton. This is good- we need to show that, well, we don't all believe exactly the same exact details. But we do believe the same basic things.

[bobmann]

Good discussion. My question would be, where in scripture does it indicate an ontological change in mankind from the fall other than mortality being introduced. If anything, we become like God, knowing good and evil (Gen 3:22).I guess that could be considered an ontological change, but not a change toward depravity or inability. Adam and Eve did not have an ontological change before they sinned. Yes, sin entered the world, but sin is external to mankind. It needs to be ruled over.

[danbrewster]

The Bible says that God's Word is powerful and alive, and can cut through to the heart with truth and hope. It can also be used to provide direction, correction, and training, and to bring comfort and remind people who they are in Christ.

[caman]

Just a few comments. I have been studying Baptist history for 30 years. Historically, no Baptist who held to eternal security would have ever label themselves "arminian". Those Baptists who would use that label are the Free Will Baptists, who believe salvation can be forfeited. So Brother Dan will constantly have to explain his views if he uses that label. If he tells someone he is a "Baptist Arminian" most people will think he denies eternal security. Keep in mind that in the 18th and 19th and 20th centuries, Provisionism did not have a label yet, so most Baptists would have said "I am a 2 point Calvinist" even tho they obviously defined even the 2 points they held, much differently that a true Calvinist. That is why so many who dont bother to dig into history say all Baptists were Calvinists, because the label we now call "Provisionist" wasn't an available term, so most reluctantly said they were Calvinist meaning they held to eternal security. This is why I am dealing with a church now, who got a pastor who is a Calvinist, who is lying about the church's history. He is trying to make the church a Calvinist church, and telling the people, that in 1818 when the church began, that it was "Reformed". This pastor knows he is lying, but since the people do not know how to discern terms, they just think the pastor must know what he's talking about. Man if I had the know how I would so make a video exposing this liar.

Also, it sounds like brother Dan may be taking the more Methodist/Wesleyan approach to total depravity, as they teach "preventive" grace keeps total depravity from taking its full affect, whereas most Provisionists (me included) would say that total depravity never existed in the first place, and that nobody has ever been guilty of Adams sin but Adam.

[scottmccauley]

Why say "mere information" cannot draw? Jesus said truth (which is information) can set you free. I believe the brute truth of God's goodness is enough to set anyone free. Some humbly accept it, others reject it because they exalt themselves.

[Richard_Rz]

How they believe asking for regeneration IS regeneration and thereby saving ourselves smh

[bradbrown]

The Gospel is Jesus. Incarnation teaching death burial resurrection and ascension.

He is enthroned now with all power given to him. Jesus brought the gospel.

[PastorJ-qbts]

Regarding Dr. Flowers' comment about believing the Bible vs. believing the Koran - he does not seem to grasp that depravity is the very answer to this conundrum. Sin is so pervasive and Satan blinds so effectively that when people come across truth and lies, the lies seem more believable and attractive.