Provisionism vs. Augustinianism | Dr. Leighton Flowers | Soteriology 101 | @ApologiaCenter

Dr. Leighton Flowers, Director of Evangelism and Apologetics for Texas Baptists, explains how Provisionism is outside of the Augustinian "grid" that both Calvinism and Arminianism exist within. Many thanks to @ApologiaCenter for the interview!

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#Calvinism #Augustinianism #LeightonFlowers #Soteriology101 #Provisionism

[electricguysvcs]

Thank you Dr. Flowers for your channel.

[amadeusasimov]

It really does seem like that has been the identifying foundation; Augustinianism.

It can be exhausting at times to debate against these Augustinian views.
You are immediately placed in one camp or another:
"are you Calvinst or Arminian?"
I respond neither, and they don't know how to categorize me. It's often just "oh you're a Pelagian!".
It's just tiring.

[viviennewilliams]

I am a Christian, I try to follow Christ's teaching. Everyone including myself are broken humans, we get somethings right and some wrong. Why do people want or need to align with a man when we have God's word and the Holy Spirit, I really don't understand why

[rudycummings]

I studied mathematics and one of the fundamentals i learned was the importance of a definition. A careful and water-tight definition of terms is one of the missing ingredients of much of the debates i see on platforms such as this one

[bornagainbeliever]

I had to laugh when you got on the subject of election and predestination at about minute 9:50 because my calvinist relatives confused me at one point regarding the meaning of these words! So at one point I said in exasperation “I don’t believe in predestination!” Of course I know better, and if anything, they are the ones that have challenged me to truly study the Word like never before. I’m trying to be ready for the next disagreement 🤣 thank you Leighton for all the videos (and The Potters Promise)- I’m learning a lot because of you-God bless you and keep you 🙏🏻

[AlexanderosD]

I think a lot of churches today, especially being founded on that Augustinian framework, are hesitant to consider that the church fathers could have been incorrect in some theological views.

[electricguysvcs]

I came across your channel a few months ago and am extremely thankful because I have a few Calvinist
believers in out family. (I am not - former Charismatic and Lutheran as a child)
Would you happen to have a chart or reference on the different soteriology points of different views??
Calvin, Armenian etc??
If not I'll see if I can come up with something like that to present to family and friends.

[AidenRKrone]

As a Molinist in the Arminian (but non-Wesleyan) tradition, I don't interpret biblical references to election as _individual_ election, but as _corporate_ election. God did not predestinate _individual persons_ to belief in Christ and salvation, but, rather, He foreordained _the Church_ to eternal life. The Church, as the body of Spirit-filled believers, collectively receives salvation, much like how it serves a purpose in God's redemptive plan.

[JimiSurvivor]

Leighton believes in the freedom of the will up until salvation. Thereafter, he believes we are no longer able to choose but must inevitably remain in Christ from then on (OSAS). It does no good to say: "once we are in we will not WANT to leave." for this begs the question and does not account for the many scriptures that warn us about falling from the faith.

There are two ways to leave the faith. One is by returning to a life of unrepentant sin
(Luke 12:42-48)
The other is to deny/depart from the faith:
1 Now the Spirit expressly states that in later times some will ABANDON the faith to follow deceitful spirits and the teachings of demons,
(1 Timothy 4:1)
The word abandon is aphistémi which means to "take up a position away from, WITHDRAW FROM, leave, abstain from."

Bible students, teachers and theologians who accept Original Sin and the resulting Total Inability they naturally buy into the false dichotomy of Arminianism and Calvinism.

[greenacresorganics]

The Eastern Orthodox are not influenced by Augustine at all, his writings are considered erroneous and they don't refer to him as a saint. The 5th ecumenical council makes it clear that his theological works are erroneous and that they should only be read through his final work called Retractions. EO don't hate him per say, we still call him "Blessed Augustine", and his works on marriage etc are viewed with high esteem, but his theological ones are not used at all.

[james]

Is there a little bit longer video? I'll probably just have to look for the video on election and predestination

[chaddonal]

Nah, the EOC doesn’t claim Augustine at all.

[twvdjpy]

Hello Laighton. Is it okay to believe in faith alone but adding believing that God chose me? Thanks for clarifying....

[joshpotteiger]

Wow. Lots of good stuff here. Really encourage you to pursue Eastern Orthodoxy!

[r.a.panimefan]

Biggest thing he did was make the church hold a gnostic view of sex

Pleasure bad. Etc

[frankmckinley]

Fourth to the sixteenth century (Agustine to Luther) approximately. Is the time where apostolic and first century culture, and biblical perspectives are muddled. Yet this is the framework most of western Christianity is working from. The unasked question, how does the average unbeliever even know or care? So let's get back to apostolic perspectives.

[duncescotus]

Augustinian pessimism can be taken too far, a la that thing we call Calvinism, but Augustine was right to place "free will" in a weakened state, while not doing away with it. No free will, no sin. No sin, no problem.
Hear St. Paul if you think Augie got it wrong:

"I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh; for I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For I do not do the good I want to do. Instead, I keep on doing the evil I do not want to do. And if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

So this is the principle I have discovered: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God’s law. But I see another law at work in my body, warring against the law of my mind and holding me captive to the law of sin that dwells within me." (Romans 7:18-23)

But note how Paul does several things:
1. personifies sin
2. implicates the law with sin, while never disparaging the law, "which is holy, just and good"
3. divides the human self into an "inner" and "outer" whatever that means. He does this along with all his other dichotomies, e.g. "flesh" and "spirit"

Perhaps the first place to look for answers is in our anthropology. Who are we?

comments welcome

[BrandonGray]

Brethren, you have not understood as you should. You must understand the narrative in order to understand what is going on. Everything in the new is a recapitulation of the old. There is nothing new under the Sun. God does not leave Himself without witness.

As the leaders of Old who led the people astray, likewise you with your doctrines are doing the same.

[paulheberling]

6:17 “it all comes down to definitions.” Yes, precisely and it is wrong headed to say Calvinists don’t affirm man having a God given ability to choose other than he does. The real issue is the metaphysical libertarian freedom that needs to be addressed. Then people won’t see Calvinism in such a bad light.

[joshualeibrant]

I pray we can all become one as the Father and Son and Spirit are one. But the Prots Catholics and Orthodox, Jews, Jw's seventh day Adventist, church of Christ, Southern Baptists, independent Baptists Muslims and the other cults and atheists are going to have to give up their false religions first or I won't be with them..