Arminians vs Provisionism

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[cecilspurlockjr.]

GOD bless u brother Flowers ..i must admit you are so much more patient than I am concerning these matters and I truly appreciate it.. I love you in THE LORD my brother..

[MikeGraves-ge]

You are correct Leighton, we believe As A RESULT of the fall prevenient Grace is needed and given to all who will receive Christ.

[jamesstandifer]

I found this helpful for understanding the point of contention.

[oprophetisfake]

God bless you all. One thing that this video shows is how we can be confused by the enemy or our own fallen nature and not understand what the other person is really trying to say, and vice versa they not understand what we are trying to say. This really is a warning to listen and have an attitude of grace with others, trying to give others the benefit of the doubt and believe the best of our brothers and sisters. May God bless and guide us in how we relate to one another to build each other up and if necessary correct each other with patience and love in the body of Jesus.

[VeryBasicBible]

First thing I noticed: Rockin' shirt!
Duuude- 9:00-9:48 especially 9:25-9:44. So good.
Had to pause and get time stamps, in order to listen to what Dan said. Gotta listen again, the distinctions and nondistinctions are good.
Ok, off to listen to that interview with Nicholas!

[sandypidgeon]

Good points on being kind and maintaining the Christian walk. If they don't accept the Gospel or removal of stumbling blocks on the first go, many have remarked "I want what you have" as in Grace. "We leave a stone in their shoe". GOD Bless

[R.L.KRANESCHRADTT]

37:25 Leighton, I still see this as another example of why not to fall prey to their lexicon of loaded phrases. It prevents 'clarity' and fosters confusion.
There is nothing wrong with their 'ears' in the first place. They just haven't had anybody tell them about the Gospel of Jesus yet.
Paul spent time with King Agrippa who listened and considered the message but wasn't convinced. There was nothing wrong with his ears before or after he heard Paul. No one can say if Paul had more time or circumstances of time & chance were different he might have been convinced.
Permitting the conversation to focus on ANY part of man requiring anything beyond becoming aware of the opportunity for salvation the Gospel provides is simply buying in to their argument of man's inability. Man is not unable. To continue arguing that point all but suggests prevenient grace IS necessary ... it is not.
I believe you and I agree when confronted with the Gospel, there is nothing innate preventing him from accepting or rejecting it's message. The Gospel is the power of God unto salvation.... but only to those who believe and before they do.
Children are born perfectly able to like candy before they have tasted it. They are not born with something wrong with their "taster"...
But they do not yet like candy for they have not yet heard "if there be any" candy...

[thedungeon]

I envy the clarity that these people have. I listen to James white. I am thinking he has a point. I am listening to Mike Winger and I am thinking he has a point. I am listening Leighten Flowers and I am thinking he has a point. I wish I had the clarity and confidence on my position as they do when it comes to this issue. But sometimes when I read I the scripture I see the different extremes. As of right now I am thinking it is a mix on theology there a true. Somewhere on the spectrum there is an absolute truth and I would love to know where truth resides. Perhaps God leaves a little bit of mystery so that we are always seeking and digging into his Word to better know him.

[enonknives]

You can only be hardened to something that you are exposed to. Calluses form when fingers are exposed to pressure. Unbelief occurs by rejecting what you have already heard. If you haven't heard it, then you haven't rejected it. You can't pre-reject the gospel. Words carry meaning. There isn't an inability to understand the meaning of specific words in a specific order. Whether you believe what you hear is another matter.

[HonorGod-MakeDisciples.]

If God created man with moral incapacity then the nagging question would be why would God held them accountable for sins?

In this dispensation all revelations supposedly from God (dreams, visions, messenger, etc) must be confirmed by the written word of God.

[HeavenGuy]

God created us to love Him. It makes no sense God made us an offense to Him.

[charlestonjames]

This entire exchange seems like Luke has assumed Leighton is a Pelagian. That bias derails the discussion, with Luke misunderstanding Leighton at every turn.

[KISStheSON...]

How does God "open eyes"?
Well, the TRUTH is eye-opening so He sent IT.
Romans 1:16
“For I am not ashamed of the GOSPEL of Christ: for IT is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.”

1 Corinthians 1:21
“For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.”

The Word of God is supernatural.
Just THINK...Where did the word of God come from?
How did it get into the world?
Can anyone other than God first bring His Word into the world?
How else can we know God unless he first sends the knowledge of himself into the world?

Proverbs 2:6
“For the LORD giveth wisdom: out of his mouth cometh knowledge and understanding.”

John 17
17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me THROUGH THEIR WORD;

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Gospel truth...Simply eye-opening 😲

[abashedsanctimony]

God provides moral capacity because "He created men incapable" of something; "sinful" (ie their words and presupposition". He tied men to 'depravity'/'inability' until He unenslaves Man from sin and re enslaves him to religious purity.

That is what calvinists ultimately claim. When you realize that is Lordship heresy, calvinism stands naked, vitriolicly as the gnosticism it has always been.

I do agree men fall and have either a depravity in their own lusts of the flesh. It's a choice to become a depraved man, blind to God through self-hardening. I agree with Arminianism is some ways, Man's inability: conditioned upon our own will.

Does not arminianism claim conditional election?

The condition is if you choose Christ through the Gospel.

'Total inability' to save themselves is correct. 'Total inability' to respond and accept Christ is who He claims to be through the Gospel. Does not exist. Unless man is rejecting God when their day of testing and trial comes Eph 6.

Eph 2:1And you hath he quickened, who *were dead in trespasses and sins* ; (past tense: after accepting Christ)

2'Wherein *in time past ye walked according to the course of this world*, according to the prince of the power of the air, the [evil] spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience"

Having been born in the world in neutrality with God and satan, our choice is clearly defined relation wise.

[Anteater]

What if total depravity is true but God also draws all men to Himself (John 12) so that all people have the opportunity to be saved (John 6:44) ? If people resist God drawing them then they may have their hearts hardened and then they may no longer be able to be saved as God stops drawing them (like the people in Romans 1).

[mikegraves]

Hi, Leighton, love what you do, so what you are saying is incorrect. Now if that is what this Arminian gentleman is saying that is incorrect and misleading. Now don't get me wrong brother; I'm an Arminian *, but wow is that ever wacked. I completely know this is not your fault, bad information. Not your fault.

[ianmcdonald]

Yes, God iwll use any means He desires to reveal HImself to people, and to deliver them from the power of Satan to the Kingdom of Light.

Once again, I want to underline what Paul tells us; that the gospel IS the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes it.
'We' under estimate the power of God in His own Word.
The power of God is inherant in His Word, it is a Word of power - Hebrews 1:3; Hebrews 4:12.
- even as it was in the spoken word of the likes of Paul, Peter, Ananias, James and John etc.
By proclaiming the Word of God as He requires, that very word (of grace) itself works uopn and in the life of the hearer.
This is not making an idol of God's Word - it is simply showing the truth of what the Holy Spirit reveals about God's Word.
IN Psalam 138:2 we read that God has exalted His word above all His name. This is the honour and the power of God's word. God's name is above all other names as is the name of Jesus.
God has given us a name above all names by which we must be saved - Jesus. Acts 4:12.
We are saved by the name of Jesus. And His word that goes out is much more exalted than the at glorious all powerful name.

The word of God is either filled with the power of God or it is not.
The Holy Spirit tells us also that Jesus Christ upholds all things by the Word of His power. - Hebrews 1:3

The prophet says that God will accomplish the things He sent His word to do. Isaiah 55:11 -"IT (MY WORD) SHALL ACCOMPLISH that which I please."
Psalm 107:20 - He sent His word and healed them. Those who obey the word are healed by the effectual powerfilled word of God.

Jesus said a number on a number of occasions - Your faith - saved (sozo) you, has healed you - go in peace.

[JimiSurvivor]

Most if not all "Arminians" disagree with you on OSAS which was not taught in its present form until the 1600s
Yet you continue presenting this as the faith once delivered to the Saints. You also avoided bringing this up in your discussions with Ken Wilson though you used his knowledge of the ECF to refute Calvinism. When are you going to stop cherry picking their writings?

[brentonstanfield]

@Soteriology101 - Part of the problem is a serious disagreement over the word "fault". You seem to be using it as a synonym for "responsibility". But it is more properly a "an unattractive or unsatisfactory feature, in a person's character." So when Arminians and Calvinists claim that God must do a supernatural work in you before you will believe, we are essentially saying that THERE IS A FAULT IN YOU that prevents you from believing (i.e. an unsatisfactory feature of your character) and that God much change or fix this FAULT so that you will believe. In other words, why don't people believe the Gospel... it is THEIR FAULT (i.e. their unsatisfactory character). So, God changes this FAULT with the TRUTH. God uses the TRUTH to "change our mind/heart" and when he does that we believe. God does both. He gives the TRUTH and he CHANGES OUR MIND/HEART. God fixes our FAULT. When I say, "it is MY FAULT", what I mean is that "there is something wrong with me".