Calvinist's Get THIS Wrong About God's SOVEREIGNTY! @ApologiaStudios

Famous Calvinists James White and Doug Wilson make wild claims about non-calvinist apologists and evangelists! Clayton breaks down the doctrine behind their views and shows why their straw man argument has no legs to stand on!

The Clayton Tyner Podcast looks at current cultural issues through the lens of Scripture’s ancient wisdom. How should we think about controversial topics? How would Jesus have us filter the news around us? Be sure to Subscribe to stay up to date with new episodes!

Find out more about Clayton:

Find out more about MetaChurch:

Follow Clayton on Social Media:

Subscribe on Apple:
Subscribe on Spotify:
Subscribe on Google:

[jonahmix]

I find that Calvinists get pretty frustrated whenever other Christians calmly and clearly lay out the actual implications of theistic determinism, but very few really try to show why those conclusions aren't accurate. Good job really pushing the basic point here. It honestly baffles me that people like Doug Wilson and James White do any evangelism or preaching at all - after all, they explicitly do not believe that they could possibly ever do anything that God doesn't intend for them to do, so why not just "go with the flow?"

[jchan]

To compare a sovereign human king over his kingdom to a sovereign God over creation is a MAJOR category error and it is not even a fair comparison. That is fitting God into purely humanistic terms. I hear this objection all the time.

[dailygospelgcc]

Just stumbled upon this video, but I appreciate your clear reasoning! I do think you have some basic misunderstandings of Calvinism though.

I’m a Calvinist pastor and would be down to do a discussion video with you on this topic if you’re interested.

[adolfotellez]

Thanks for doing what you do Clayton!

Id like to think that if we asked Jesus whether he was a Calvinist or Armenian, that he would say that we were asking him the wrong questions.

“After all, when we are most free, it is only with a freedom God has given us: and when our will is most influenced by Grace, it is still our will. And if what our will does is not ‘voluntary’, and if ‘voluntary’ does not mean ‘free’, what are we talking about? I’d leave it all alone.”
- CS Lewis

We should also be weary, as Mr Tyner has repeatedly pointed out to some commentators, to not presuppose our theology into scripture. It is a very very dangerous game. Does scripture prove Calvinism? Arminianism?

I’m gunna side with Mr Lewis on this one. I don’t think Scripture makes a point for either, because it’s not the point of scripture.

[alonzomccloud]

Doesn't it say that in Ephesians 1:4-5; and doesn't it also say, v. 11. " In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will."

[western_eagle]

Thanks for being polite to us Calvinists(I have seen some Christians call us heretical and done lots of nasty name calling rather than trying to construct an argument) I think your operating from what you know of our beliefs and that’s ok, we all have to do that. But my understanding of your argument is as follows(forgive if being inaccurate; I’m trying to be as charitable as possible):

Calvinists define Sovereignty as “theistic determinism” (maybe not explicitly but at least in their minds)

This idea of sovereignty is why they deny free-will exists and is the basis for their theory on election, grace etc

Therefore they have bad presuppositions causing them to not use their free will for doing good or quality (If they are doing quality work; they are doing im so cognitively inconsistently with their theology)


I have heard every one of these points my entire life from people and there are few reasons people form these conclusions; I myself became a Christian largely around people who were anti-Calvinistic (for some reason they don’t like being called Armenian; even though that is theologically what they are; as their only other choices are universalism or a sacerdotal works-based “pelagianism or semi”) or indifferent to the matter. I will start that your premise is disproven the moment you read any major Calvinistic work, bondage of the will, canons of Dort, John Calvin’s institutes or any major Protestant confession (Savoy, WCF, Belgic, LBC and on and on). None of these deny the existence of a will nor do they affirm this automaton robot idea of what human being is. (Yet this is the most common characture of Calvinist doctrine, why? Are Calvinists misdescribing themselves, are Armenians not studying these issues well enough? Could be both but I think part the problem is that determinism vs free-will is actually a philosophy problem that gets injected because the discussion on sovereignty sounds similar to it and rather than discussing the real core issues that Dort was about. Are we dead in our sin or wounded by it? Is the atonement a payment for our sins or only a possibility? And does God have a right to elect whom he wills or is the elect (which just a word for the church) made up purely by chance(God looked ahead figured out who turned out good and predestined them for election) let me inject some philosophy here to show how the determinism free-will discussion can be derailing, one could contend that Armenian view is deterministic that mere chance outweighs God in determining who belongs to the church; God is creating individuals in first place with character flaws that will ultimately keep them from choosing God; that’s more deterministic to me the idea that our will is just in the bondage to sin)

Sorry for the essay but I hope that is enough to point you toward a more fuller understanding of the issue.

I didn’t get to the evangelism issue but I will have to write more on that later, but hope that opens the door for further discussion.

[alonzomccloud]

And you don't see that in James white? Dealing with false religion and preaches on sunday? You need to sit down with him and let him tell you what Calvinist believe. I gave you some scriptures Ephesians 1:11. "...all things after the counsel of his will."

[alonzomccloud]

You missed it also. These men go out and evangelize, and you know the reason why they evangelize ? because we are commanded to... " studying to show ourselves approved..." In the greek, it is in the imperative mood. The will of God for the believers are to live a holy life. This is how we grow and become spiritual men in Christ. Scripture doesn't contradict itself. So are you saying that free will trumps, us being dead in our trespasses and sins. ?

[mikedvirgilio]

I can't watch anymore, it's too painful. I made it to Min. 6. Clayton doesn't know the first thing about Calvinism, and he obviously hasn't studied the great Calvinists of the last 500 years. He talked about straw men, and he's spewing them left and right. If you're interested in what Calvinism actually is, you will not find it here.

[mikedvirgilio]

Oh my. Clayton actually believes that Calvinists "don't retain a free will." Really? Well, I'm a Calvinist and I sure believe human beings have agency, have real choice, and those choices carry consequences. And I've read Calvin's Institutes cover to cover, and I can report, Calvin believes the same thing. Everything Calvin writes assumes and implies that human beings are not robots and their choices are real and matter. I'm now reading through his commentaries, and I can report they indicate the same thing: John Calvin is not a determinist! I've only gotten 35 seconds it, but I will listen to the rest to see if he might get something RIGHT about God's sovereignty and Calvinists. So far, it doesn't look promising.

[jchan]

This video seems to claim that our choices are determined by factors but isn't that in opposition to libertarian free will or the ability to choose otherwise? Only an undetermined will would be able to choose otherwise.

What I find ironic is that non-calvinist don't realize that their view of God is no less deterministic than the calvinist view of God. For the the non Calvinist, God is allowing all events in time to happen and that nothing can happen unless God allows it. This assumes God can stop anything from happening in creation. The only way to get around this is to deny God's omnipotence over creation.

[Jondoe_]

Clement for example talked about the elect and how they were elected by God, the martyr policarp talked about how how God would have him stay as they burned him alive. We have a creaturly will not a free will. Augustine who made one of the first treatises on the will of man made it clear that the will is limited due to it's slavery to sin. Passages such as Genesis 50:20 Judges 14:4, proverbs 16:4 and 9, and many others point to that man has will but God is the one who is over it and states things like how far it will go and what are its effects. Theistic determinism is a term Calvanist dont like using because most people just drop the Theistic part and just go to determinism which is wrong. I and many other calvanist prefer the term compatiblism which talks about how God has stated what will happen from the beginning but without the will of man suffering violence.

[christiankraft]

God does get what he wants. He wants us to choose Him with your free will. The macro narrative doesn't work without it. Why are we trying to lean on Calvin to have us understand. I'm pretty sure he was just a dude like you, and I. He puts his pants on one leg at a time. Filled with sin just like me. He probably also prayed for understanding, just like the rest of us Christians that dissgree as to how to understand God's word.

[alonzomccloud]

Well, why don't you go on his show and talk about it, or vice versa your show.

[BigLivingNow]

Adams fall=spiritual death=Gods plan of redemption=gods plan of reconciliation through Christ=God drawing lost souls to Christ=the spiritually dead being born again to relationship and life in Christ.

Where in this does your free will exempt Gods sovereign grace? Your free will is under the direction and essence of iniquity and unrighteousness, ungodly and separated from God. Just asking.
Such a low view of the Alpha and Omega. The creator God.

[mfarmer]

You are straw manning them as they straw man you😢

[bravebarnabas]

As many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

[brentonstanfield]

You seem like a very nice guy. But this is very misleading. Of course James White and Doug Wilson believe that it is vitally important to be prepared to give a defense. God WORKS through the means of men doing good evangelism and apologetics and every Calvinist agrees with that. We desire to teach what is true and do what is good FIRST because we desire for God to work in us… and everything true we say and good we do is exactly that, the work of God in us. As Paul said:

1 Corinthians 15:10: But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, BUT THE GRACE OF GOD THAT IS WITH ME.

Or

Colossians 1:29: For this I toil, struggling with all his energy that he powerfully works within me.

Or

Philippians 2:12-13: Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

Or as Christ himself said:

John 14:6: Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me? The words I say to you, I do not speak on My own. Instead, it is the Father dwelling in Me, performing His works.

The reason why we want to do well is because we desire God to work in us and do good works through us… but we leave the RESULTS up to Him.