Leighton Flowers vs James White: Did Leighton Read John 6:45 Backwards?

In the recent debate between Dr. Leighton Flowers @Soteriology101 and Dr. James White @AominOrg, Dr. White argued that Dr. Flowers read his understanding of John 6:45 back into the rest of the passage. In this video Jordan explains why that is not the case.

Watch more from Jordan on the topic of Calvinism:

Is Calvinism Biblical with Leighton Flowers / Soteriology 101

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GREAT LIGHT STUDIOS FILMS:

[Ian-dihn]

Surely verse 45 explains verse 44. Dont explanations follow statement?

[twincityccrr]

Leighton's presentation (s) were spectacular to watch...I strongly believe that The Lord ORDAINED for Leighton to drop this massive hammer on the head of Calvinism's social media ring God Be The Glory....

And thank you for chopping it up with these short vids...THIS TRUTH IS DEFINITELY A GREAT LIGHT!!!!

[SpielbergMichael]

Dr. Joel Korytko graduated with a PhD from Oxford, and now an Assistant Professor of Biblical Studies at Northwest Seminary. He’s a Bible scholar who specializes in the Greek Septuagint.

There are multiple videos you can watch where Dr. Joel Korytko calmly, politely, dispassionately and objectively demonstrates that James White’s claims about what the Greek says are wholly wrong. He even includes quoting famous Calvinists like D A Carson who say the same things about the Greek as Dr. Joel Kolytko.

Please don’t be afraid of watching or ignore these videos:

‘Ex-Calvinist Bible Scholar Reviews James White Vs. Leighton Flowers Debate: John 6’

There’s a follow up video to that:

‘James White responds to my debate review’

The YouTube channel is:

‘What your pastor didn’t tell you’

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It can be convincing when James White says things about the Greek in such a way to say that means his interpretation is correct, especially if you don’t know Greek.

But multiple actual scholars of Greek completely disagree with him.

Be careful. Don’t be fooled.

[dji]

I maintain Mr. White predetermined (before the debate began) he would accuse Mr. Flowers of reading the text backwards. It was totally scripted and staged, which is what Mr. White regularly does in debates involving his Calvinistic dogma. He doesn't bother to listen to his opponents' arguments, but even more deceitfully, feigns confusion with what was said (or more correctly, what he predetermined to hear). Mr. White makes no attempt to debate honestly; rather, he skillfully uses logical fallacies to build a foundation of straw which he then claims to be firmly grounded in the biblical text. It is nothing more than smoke and mirrors. We expect better from him, but sadly he regularly fails to deliver.

[joseotoya]

Leighton was completely fair in his exposition. Not once...NOT ONCE did White ever address the issue at hand which was to establish the U of tulip. All he focused on was attacking Dr. Flowers and desperately trying to patronize, demonize, and make him look incompetent.

[jeffreybomba]

If you walk through Romans with a Calvinist, how many times do they want to jump forward to chapter 9 and beyond to grab and assumption and plug it into an early passage to make it fit Calvinism? This must start right in chapter 1 for. On the other hand, evaluating an entire Greek thought (there were no sentences or paragraphs) and examining the whole thing, is bad. Do you realize how many passages are translated into very difficult English because the Greek thought process often started from what we would think of as the end, and works back?

[CosmicalChrist]

Here's something a popular friend of mine would have said

*"There were no versification/numbering when the Bible was written. So to treat vs 44 and 45 as separate wouldn't exist if we were using the greek manuscripts"*

[g.c.]

Yea, White lost that debate and White was then resulting to discrediting Flowers as Calvinist always do.

[nicholaspaul]

No good news in calvinism. They turned faith to fate

[williammarinelli]

John 20:31 "But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name."

What are "these" that "are written?"

And no looking back at what's already written in the Gospel of John, that's vietato.

[inad]

Calvinism doesn't make any sense. Not because we "just don't understand it at all". It just doesn't.

[truthfirst]

The point of the Scripture is actually to say that their claims of following God are false. It is as if they're saying, oh yeah, we're big friends with God, and Jesus is responding, that's impossible because I am God and you're not friends with Me.

[theidolbabblerthedailydose]

Unfortunately, White conflates the drawing in 44 with the giving in verse 37, which then causes him to misunderstand Jesus’ clarification in 45. And, White must read the text backwards from 44 in order to offer an idea of what 37 says (which he accuses the opponent of doing with 45 🙄).

[benanderson]

White seems to say that one cannot use verse 45 to explain verse 44. That stands in opposition to established hermeneutical principles. Jesus often made a statement or told a parable and then explained it in the subsequent verses.Take John 3:16 where the following verses 17-21 are an explanation of verse 16. Or take the parable of the sower in Luke 8:5-8. Jesus explains the parable later in verses 11-15. White wants everyone to accept his interpretation of verse 44 without understanding the context of his Jewish audience in John 5-6, which is what Leighton explained well.

I am glad to see increased discussion about the false teachings of Calvinism reaching a broader audience in evangelical Christianity.

[Christ-or-Chaos]

1:33 - 1:37 in this video is where Dr. Flowers ties in verse 6:45. It's in passing from John 5:39 to 6:46 before he gets to verse 44. That's why people are saying Dr. Flowers can't walk through the text and had to jump around.

[controlclerk]

So, based on your interpretation, the 12 apostles were the only people at the time who "believed Moses." Even John the Baptists' disciples had to ask if Jesus was really the Messiah.

It should be noted that most of the people following Jesus left after this. When He asked the 12 if they would leave, too, Peter professed faith and Jesus said "Did I not *choose* you, the twelve?" There's also multiple examples of the apostles not understanding His public ministry and needing clarification in private. Seems they, too, struggled with some of Jesus' teachings.

I would suspect what they witnessed Him do played a major role in their staying with Him. By this time, He had fed the 5k, walked on water, healed many people, etc. When He called Nathanael, for example, He told him He saw him under the fig tree. When He called Peter, He miraculously filled his nets after a whole night of fishing was unproductive. The apostles had more than Jesus' public ministry to keep them.

Finally, throughout the whole gospel there are verses indicating that you could only know Jesus was the Messiah because it was revealed from God. The Baptist said, "A person cannot receive even one thing unless it is given him from heaven" (3:27).

But 6:37 has been glossed over in this whole debate- *All* that the *Father gives* Me *will* come to Me, and whoever comes to Me I will never cast out.

Then verse 39-

And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that I should lose *nothing* of *all* that *He has given* Me, but raise it up on the last day.

Like James said, you guys read verse 45 first and apply it backwards. You say they have to listen and learn to be given, but the verse is clarifying what it means to be drawn- to be drawn means you will listen and learn.

[AndrewKeifer]

This video completely dispels White's claim in that first clip.

[Jesusisking]

Calvinism not only distorts the Bible, but leads people away from a loving God, who calls all men to come to Calvary. And to be honest, debating or arguing with a Calvinist that Jesus wants all to turn from their sin is frankly a waste of time. Calvinism philosophy has blinded them to the love of God and that he wants all to repent. They are like the blind leading the blind to who Jesus really is.

[josephalvinalmedatv]

Reading it forward or backward is not the fundamental issue. The scriptures command to believe, learn, come to Jesus and Jesus rebuking those who do not do this do not prove post adamic fall inborn ability to come to Jesus without internal, extensive work of the Holy Spirit. Man who is dead in sin cannot respond simply by hearing the gospel. All of Leighton's arguments and semi pelagian views did not prove innate total ability just because Jesus said believe.

Both Calvinist and Arminians agree on Total depravity that necessitates Effectual grace or Prevenient grace. The reason he is not arminian is because he is a lone crusader who argues like a semi pelagian but denies the charge of being one.

On the other hand, White was straightforward in defending that the reason why some can come and others can't is because of effectual calling in v 44-45 based on the correct understanding of helkyse/helkuo the greek for drawing which means dragging from one place to another. God is the one dragging a passive inactive object that will lead to coming and raising in the last day as Jesus promised. This is not reading calvinism into the text but scripture. This is in perfect alignment with total inability/depravity...

Jesus explained why the crowds could not come, they were not given by the Father v 37 to Jesus and granted from above v65. Jesus understood man's inability that is why He said in v 44 No one can come unless giving, drawing and granting by the Father alone are met.

I know this does not make sense to the carnal theological mind but it's the Truth. Leighton believes that it is his post adamic fall survivor effectual libertarian freewill philosophy borrowed from the world that put him in Christ.

Calvinists will continue to reject libertarian philosophy based salvation because the concept is external and nowhere in scripture. It is imposed by rationalistic philosophers. If Jesus said believe then man must have eternal destiny self determining ability is a fallacy.

[Breakdowns]

When White says, “Text” I feel like I’m listening to a villain monologue.