Calvinism Vs. Decisionism on the Atonement and Faith

A live discussion with Elijah Morris on the topic of "Limited Atonement", which will ultimately lead to a discussion about the nature of faith, as it is the fundamental difference between our positions. We will both be using scripture to present our understanding of what was accomplished by the death of Christ on the cross. The ultimate question is this: did Christ's death actually save who it was intended to save, or did it only make salvation possible for all people

[jonlambert]

Great stuff RC. So far this less adversarial \ emotional form of interaction is more fruitful IMHO. Long form, measured, good will conversation as opposed to debate 👍

[CBALLEN]

We must boast that God chose us, Jesus died for us and the Holy Spirit gave us a new heart to believe it, we are just the recipient of the greatest gift imaginable.

[Zaloomination]

I appreciate your elucidating the binary found in slavery to sin and slavery to Christ. As you explained the binary between rebellion and faith is also found in 1 Corinthians 1 and 2 with the natural man who is perishing and finds the gospel foolishness and the spiritual man who can understand the things of God and to whom the gospel is the power of God. The binary real and there is no in between gray area as you said.

[jonlambert]

My compliments to Elijah Morris for his demeanor so far in this conversation. It's really good to see 2 Christians engaging in a high level theological conversation in good faith.

[RazrIG]

A simple way to put it Rogue Calvinist is faith is like your programming. Everyone has been designed or programmed to think a certain way. Some are made for noble purposes and some for destruction. Some are gifted with better reasoning and logic than others. Almost everyone would agree 2+2=4 but if you're brain dead or have some kind of tumor, you may have trouble acknowledging that mathematical fact. So while some Christians think it's a choice to believe God like 2+2 =4, it wasn't really a choice to believe. It is based on their programming. Most people if asked to truly change their mind about 2+2=4 cannot, without lying to themselves. So unless your programming is faulty you are forced to acknowledge that mathematical truth.

What Elijah isn't understanding here is that he didn't have a choice to believe in God or not, it was made clear to him by God, others didn't have the capability to.
His programming refuses to acknowledge the sound reasoning as to why some may choose differently and appeals to mystery, but it's staring him right in the face. The only difference is one person truly didn't believe and one was forced to believe that was made possible by God.

[CBALLEN]

God choosing those that He chose before time, to save, and then Jesus saving them and the Holy Spirit bringing them to new life to believe, is indeed foolishness to the world. The world wants a salvation that they can control.

[jtbtdlkt]

Its an annoying tactic when the provisionist/decisionist etc appeals to "well do you have a verse", and inevitability when we provide a verse they shift the goalposts. A great response would be to lead them down a garden path affirming the trinity, how and why, and hopefully let them see they inconsistency of how they affirm doctrines against how they expect us to affirm doctrines.

[jonlambert]

This conversation displays precisely why I call "provisionism" or any form of "Arminianism", "IKEA soteriology". God provides the parts, I assemble! 😅 No, faith is a gift from God, I am not able to make the last step just like in the natural I always make a mistake somewhere in the assembly

[Zaloomination]

Saying that the gospel has power to save (power of God unto salvation, Romans 1:16) implies that it is an active saving, that it acts on the person. Not that the will has the power to be saved, that seems to be a different mechanism of salvation.

[emilesturt]

No one can come to Jesus unless the Father draws them...
We all agree.
We are all spiritually dead in that we are not yet relationally reconciled to God due to our sin alienating us from him...
This we all agree upon.
Are all human beings able to listen to the Father and learn from him before coming to Jesus or before being regenerate? ...
This we do not all agree upon due to differing views of depravity and election.

Is the influence of Divine Grace absolutely necessary from beginning to end...
Yes absolutely.
Is there a Divine call and a human response from the drawing to the illumination and rebirth?...
Yes absolutely.
Is this a divine mystery at the end of the day that is both beyond Calvinists and Provisionists... both having weak and strong points?
Yes I think so.

[ranejo]

Masterful, RC!!! Four hours of spiritual blessing. Thank God that, like you, I didn’t repeat a prayer or make a wise spiritual decision…In a moment in time, God simply gave me a new heart and caused my spiritually blind eyes to see.

[CBALLEN]

This is why the new birth from God must happen first.John 3:19–20 (NIV): 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed.

[webgold]

One of the things I like to point out to those who deny a limited atonement is how there understanding of the atonement does not line up with what Christ said about the
unpardonable sin. Jesus clearly tells us that there is no forgiveness for those up commit this sin. Therefore, why would Jesus die for the sins of these people?

[SaltyApologist]

I find it disrespectful to look at verses citing actions that only regenerate people can do, like humble themselves and seek God, and from the position of an already regenerated Christian assume that just anyone can do those things because you can. It’s a total disregarding of the power of The Spirit that made you a new Creation and changed your desires and your willingness to submit to God. It’s looking back in hindsight and saying “well I am doing that, so anyone can” and totally overlooking what miracle God had to work in you to make you able. people just push aside the miracle of regeneration and it’s sad

[dennis]

How can i put my faith in something that i find absolutely foolish?
That question was flying over that poor guys head. It was hard to listen to him after that. And the fact that he is boasting without understanding what that means either.
All of these questions are answered in scripture for those with the eyes to see and to those with the ears to hear.
All, absolutely ALL of it is the gift of God!

[SaltyApologist]

Finally Made it to 2:30:00 ish mark. This one is hard to watch with the endless Provisionism flip flopping. What they fail to realize is that the atonement has been accomplished. It says has perfected. Past tense. It is done. It doesn’t say it has made a possible way someday if you accept it. All those who are the elect have been redeemed. Yes it will be applied in time, as in there is a time in our lives when we become born again, but it was accomplished at Calvary. All those whom God has chosen were forgiven at Calvary. He chose us before the world began. They have to admit that it says all sins have been paid for, because the verse says that. Then they have to try and say that it only applies if you accept it, which denying it is a sin, so that one isn’t covered? It’s just pretzel twisting after pretzel twisting. All to save their precious autonomy

[Zaloomination]

This was such a a good conversation and I only heard a bit of it so far, I'm working through it in pieces. But you asked really good, incisive questions. Around 43 or 44:00 when he was describing the process of realizing he was a sinner from the law, I kept thinking of Jesus' saying how people in darkness love darkness because their works are evil. The law may expose our son, but without the Spirit changing our heart we won't change because our nature naturally loves our sin.

[jtbtdlkt]

😵‍💫😵‍💫🤯😤 my beard is growing grayer by the minute here! @1:26:19 when he mentions "in the Bible people are asked to make decisions" and this is where they are launching from a faulty premise. A command by God does NOT necessitate ability by man, often its to point out how utterly incapable we are on our own.
Fella "God commands you to follow the Law perfectly, can you?".
"God commands you to be perfect as The Father is perfect, can you do that?".

Whats the premise and purpose of autonomous/libertarian free will?

[CBALLEN]

The Bible tells us that God must remove our heart of stone and give us a heart of flesh, this causes us to repent and believe aand we are sealed by the Holy Spirit. We cannot believe with our heart of stone and cause God to give us a heart of flesh.If we could choose to repent and believe with a heart of stone, we wouldn't need God to give us a heart of flesh!

[jtbtdlkt]

The line of questioning at around the 1:16:00 mark shows the lack of depth of their position. It is frustrating to us when you ask "how do you place confidence in something you don't believe to be true" and they respond with "you choose to believe BUT HOW!