Problems with Provisionism

Kevin discusses the problems with provisionism and shows why it is not a good alternative to Calvinism.

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PLAYLISTS:
8 ‘A’s of Salvation” (pre-requisite salvation considerations before other inferences can be entertained)
“Christian Cognition” (learn about the things that affect data processing other than “the facts”)
“Full Stature Initiative” (follow presentations and group discussions of the Book of Acts)
“Acts 13:48” (videos that address this so-called “Calvinist proof text”)
“Calvinist Infiltration” (videos that address Calvinist infiltration into non-Calvinist churches)


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[jasonyoung]

First, this is going to be a long one, so bear with me.

Second, I like Kevin Thomson (scoff all you want and say you don’t care for the adulation of men or that it matters little whether one likes one man or another. That’s your prerogative. What I state is the truth and a fact).

Third, I think Kevin has done a tremendous job countering Calvinism. I still see that his videos on Calvinism get the most views. It makes me think that perhaps this is a ministry God called him to do, at least for a while.

Fourth, he has segued away from contending solely with Calvinism. This is good. He must follow what he believes the Lord’s leading is for him. He has focused lately and mostly on the four forms of knowing—Perspectival, Participatory, procedural, and Propositional. There’s much to be gained from from this perspective as long as we do so with the understanding (and Kevin is very intelligent, thus he knows this) that this is not all there is to epistemology.

Given the above, it is a mistake to lambast all forms of propositional (or definitive) knowledge or encapsulations. Knowledge is impossible without definition. This is just a simple fact. What is the difference between a Christian and Muslim or Hindu or a Buddhist if there are no definitions? Or for that matter between a believer and a non-believer?

A noun is a definition. No one kids himself (unless he is foolish) that that noun captures everything at once by that provisional definition. The name ‘Kevin Thomson’ is a propositional definition. It makes me know immediately who we are referring to. Propositional knowledge starts us off. Later, I can know Kevin Thomson beyond that initial definition—perhaps a husband, a father, a son, a soldier, a teacher, a Christian, a kind man, an intelligent thinker. But though he may be all of those things, nobody will know who I am talking about if I don’t define him by naming him.

There is not this interminable horizon before us, sans boundaries. If this should be the case, then we will no longer know who a Christian is or for that matter a non-Christian. How can we know who we are talking about without definitions? Are there no such things as atheists, Mormons, Catholics, Lutherans, Baptists, or Presbyterians? How do we know who they are without definitions. How do we even talk? How do I know an aeroplane from a ship? Consequently, the creed is necessary, statements of faith are necessary. It is necessary that we define who we are and who we are not.

How do I know a liberal Christian from an evangelical? Or are those boundaries no longer necessary? How do I know who a man is as opposed to a woman if there are no longer definitions but just this porous horizon? If there are no definitions, what then is that faith that was handed down to us?

In this zeal to show the weaknesses of propositional knowledge, care should be taken lest in the end we become something that nobody knows what it is anymore. If you become everything (since you now eschew definitions), you become nothing, for you have turned amorphous.

Finally, when somebody is as intelligent as Kevin is, they may run the risk of coming to the point where they may not listen to anyone anymore but themselves (dismissing other voices in the process, even those who mean them well). I hope this not the case with Kevin. I have run the risk of being scoffed at and dismissed.

I have taken time to leave this message (perhaps a caution) because I really do like Kevin. Now he can take this or dismiss it. I have done what I’ve felt led to do. May God give him the wisdom to take it as he feels appropriate.

Blessings.

[ravissary]

I consume a fair bit of Provisionist content. I'm Pentacostal and Arminian by background, but had a wonderful time exploring a less rigid sectarian experience in YWAM. But i eventually ran into the massive sectarian issues caused by calvinism in my new local area.
Because of this i was drawn to Soteriology 101 because of his exploration of the problem posed by calvinism, but not from the Arminian boilerplate i was raised with. I'm NOT a Baptist, so when I first was introduced to Traditionalism i didn't jibe with it but it exposed problems in Arminianism i didn't see on my own. In seminary and by listening to you and Leighton and Chris Date and a couple Open Theist Channels, and taking a harder look at multiple passages i had issues with... i eventually took so much more of my intellectual interactive space in my faith by the horns than ever before. Yet it didn't make me divorce from labels or factions, but instead seek out agreeable, basic, biblically compatible, non-restrictuve ideas, lead by scripture... and the later development of Provisionism has been part of that for me. I want to be unified with MORE Christians, not less, but thoughtfully.

Whwn you started calling out provisionism i didnt get it. I looked forward to this video to finally show the real problems... hrm... Word occurrence statistics isn't a logically valid way of assessing the vality of an idea. This metric would condemn your own channel to irrelevance. Its not logically valid. All your emphasis on cognitive science is useless if your critiques rely on such elementary fallacies.

You say that Provisionism is defined as a negative response to calvinism. That's not a claim that arises from the definition of the system at all though. The propositions and actual beliefs are all positive. You're just CLAIMING it is because the preamble in the piece talks about calvinism?
It's the preamble.
That's not a valid analysis of the IDEAS, only an honest look at the landscape it grew up in.

What's Leighton supposed to do, never mention calvinism despite it being an inexorable part of his story that lead him to strip it all down and go back to scripture and develop provisionism as a biblically clarified and recalibrated return to traditional Baptist Soteriology, but in a way that's not merely bapist and less sectarian?
That's dishonest.

Then you go through a couple propositions and then apply fallacious analysis to each. You complain that they attach atonement to salvation... at all. Wait so it has NOTHING to do with salvation? "No of course not" then why complain its connected? Thats a negative inference fallacy... you can't judge a statement as false because it doesn't say enough to describe everything you propositionally think about it... that's unreasonable.
"Im not against propositional knowing" but yet you JUST said that describing a proposition or trying to formulate one to be right is futile, that any systematic is pointless... that a proposition can't or shouldn't be your PRODUCT.
🙁
But propositions are the only currency we have to share over distance and time with eachother. Youre not here in my local church, i cant share an EXPERIENCE with you, you cant lay hands on me. This commebts section can ONLY allow me to share words. Propositions.
I can't produce a propositional product from my relationship with God? You are right now... why is it a sin (yes you said its a sin) to relay good, biblical propositions to people?
You're tying all of our hands. We can't even talk?

Maybe you don't actually mean what you're saying. That would have to be true.
Youve reduced Christianity into a mysticism that resists all words as inadequate. No doctrines, no propositions "but theyre not bad"... but its a sin to produce them? I cant even share the gospel if i take you seriously. I cant even accept your owm videos, theyre all enrurely too propositional. Its a sin, Kevin. It's just intellectually idiosyncratic. I can't BE IN your mysticism becauseim not you. Your followers claim I'm "too dark to accept the light" of your novel mystical obtuse indescribable... thing.
You've evolved to a point that you literally can't believe anything in common with anyone. What's shared if the entire church can't be in an FSI discussion?

[thekriskokid]

Makes so much sense. "If you compare yourself to others, you may become vain and bitter; for always there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself."

Max Ehrmann,  Desiderata: A Poem for a Way of Life

[SgtRock]

So "Beyond The Fundamentals" is condemning "Soteriology 101" for being too focussed on Soteriology? Primarily the scourge of Calvinism?? The channel is Soteriology 101 and a very specific topic or piece or part or step of the Christian life study. Dr. Flowers has said ad nauseum he did not want another "...ism" but he felt it happens to better communicate in brief human terms a soteriological position derived from scriptures. So, serious question here, aside from our own critical thinking, and reading the Bible what youtube channels should believers watch to aid them beyond the fundamentals of Christianity?

[laurakosch]

1:10:10

Fundamentals: //the capacity to DO something, and NOT a set of beliefs. //

For me, I could not “do” anything “Christian” until I had a better understanding of God, who He is, and His love.

Bad teaching, especially Calvinism (and listening to MacArthur, Piper, Washer, etc) led to a sort of paralysis of doubt and fear.

Needless to say, I could not “do”anything at all in this state.

When Paul prays for other believers he often prays they will grown in faith, wisdom and understanding, especially of Gods love (Ephesians 3:16-19).

Until I had my beliefs in God sorted out (with help of many teachers and personal study) I could not do anything, and certainly transformation was zero 😥

[coytibbit]

This is both deep and like you’re talking to children at the same time. We need this right now.

[bkt]

Kevin, some of what you say here, i always thought ( a lot of Christians do)
But more important, is a humble love, rather you happen to agree, that you more closely agree with a doctrine statement or not.
Some of your extreme conclusions i dont agree with.
Kevin do you do the very thing that you are warning of, with the DISPENSATIONAL view ?
By the way a teacher that is really a great example of all this is Steve Gregg. The Narrow Path
May we all become more loving, humble, holy, graceful

[BlastHardcheese]

Thoughtful commentary in this chat. I’m not sure I can keep up. Just yesterday I watched Leighton on Remnant Radio from 3 years ago, and it was the best I’ve ever heard him. Very likable and convincing, not at all like a one string banjo. He is non-Calvinist, as Kevin is about every 3rd episode these days. I think he wasn’t satisfied with just being against something, or with letting being against something define him. So he tried to construct a more positive rationale and gave it a name. But his channel is still Anti-Calvinism 101, and Kevin could be anti-Calvinism 201. I like going back and getting my cocoon reinforced occasionally, so I hope they both keep up what they are doing.

[John.]

Perhaps Provisionism is like the "Nicotine Patch" for Calvinism. It is helpful in getting off of Calvinism, however it can be addicting and harmful by itself as well. Kevin is like the medical marijuana doctor that says, Nicotine? What lol!? Nicotine patch!? what lol?! Look bro, I got the stuff right here!

[EdwardPhaneuf-vu]

Hoping this is taken well, and not as an attack, though it is a critique with some questions…

I can understand the motivation to avoid labels and statements of faith, in that it removes a target for opposition.

If we cannot come to understandings or conclusions from scripture that are anymore more valid than others that may be asserted, then how is scripture relevant and what is it good for if it does not convey a message that can be understood. Claiming we hold to scripture as an authority in any discussion would seem to become meaningless.

Certainly where things are vague or mysterious we shouldn’t demand a conclusion or be bound by the conclusions of others, but this is very different from being unwilling to accept that some conclusions appear probable, highly likely and in some cases practically certain based upon the text. This idea of viewing these different understandings through sets of glasses serves to convey that a person really does see how and why another has come to the conclusions they have, but it does so without commitment, (a comfortable position).

Regarding 1st and 2nd half of life wisdom, I’m struggling with the validity of this concept. What is wisdom but appropriate action based upon the particular situation, an individuals knowledge of it, and their ability and responsibility within it. Their responsibility is however based on an overarching principal to which they ascent or are committed to.

(For example, Matthew 22:37-40)

1st or 2nd half of life, this principal does or does not change?

Our knowledge and responsibilities may change with time and maturity so that we may be in a position to choose differently but still appropriately in a similar situation at the age of 45 as compared to 20, but did the overarching principal change? I’d say no. Our knowledge of what the overarching principal is or principals are may have changed (grown)but this in no way affects the valid principal. We are subject to it whether we know or ascent to it.

It is understood that the less mature a person or a people the more rules they need appropriate to their most relevant and particular situations. These rules being derived from the overarching principal that they may not be able or willing to understand as appropriate at their state of maturity. (Case in point Matthew 22: 37-40, the 10 commandments can be derived from these and the many rules given to the Israelites through Exodus, Leviticus & Numbers as an even further derivation appropriate for the Israelites).

Not intended to be an accusation and maybe I have missed some of what has been communicated, but it seems that we don’t want to be labeled an -ist or as subscribing to an -ism and we don’t want to commit to any overarching principles or statements of beliefs (I’m talking here only about historical events that we believe to be true / accurate) and yet we want to be considered Christians or a follower of Jesus, or part of the body of Christ. We want to commit to no distinctives (even tentatively) and yet be considered part of a group that is distinct? I’m not sure how this can be considered a valid position?

[rosstemple]

Keven can you teach this to Congress and all politicians please. 😝

[georgedez]

I dont enjoy or like what im getting here, but i need what im getting here

[JasonPSchafer]

Yeah i agree with the negative space thing being an issue. Its why i became an Arminian in the first place. Warching these videos is making me want to study harder to make sure im not just holding to that as a reactionary position solely.

[vinniebasile]

Here's some of the "1% signal amongst the 99% noise" I find in Calvinism:

1. God is the BOSS (Sovereign).

2. Our sin is a huge problem.

3. God's grace is incredible.

4. Mystery makes God amazing.

5. God did all the work to accomplish your Salvation.

[Scotts.Christianity.Teaching]

I honest to God think Christians wouldn't want to mess up the Bible with the NASB and NASB1995. They would want it to be interpreted the way it was written by Apostle Paul.

[JulietManx]

Having been guilty of fundamentalism myself I can only liken it to finding truth and staying there to finding truth and building/growing on truth allowing myself to be conformed in His likeness instead of simply knowing about it.
I have more conversations about these videos than anything truly is my favourite channel. My thinking is in boot camp 😂

[caiomorino]

Hi, I would like an explanation as to why you seem to believe that paradigms cannot be held provisionally, with an openness to revision in light of disconfirming evidence.

[jeangreen]

Simplicity in Jesus Christ is to read 'all' of His Word and follow His Truth, not man's. Stay away from commentaries. Stop reading men's books of ideas. Stop listening to youtubers. Read Biblical history, customs, traditions, use lexicons, bible study tools (word search, etc), keep notes, and allow yourself to be malleable with any 'understanding' if 'all' of Scripture is not supporting an 'idea'. Always conform to Christ's full teachings. Continue reading His Word daily, follow after His Ways prayerfully seeking after Him to know and love Him as He desires. The rest will come to you by His grace and the power of His Holy Spirit in you for your faithfulness. It's a life long attainment, you'll never reach perfection but you will most certainly grow closer to resembling His image and not the world's...with men it is impossible but with God all things are possible. Trust and obey the Lord of lords, our faithful, just and loving Savior, Jesus Christ. Love and worship Him with all of your heart, mind and soul<3

[duanehensley]

To be more precise, I think rather than taking a negative postion against something we often times are guilty of throwing the baby out with the bath water and/or allowing ourselves to be so biased against the opponent's view we aren't open to all of the truth. We also become tribal which also doesn't allow for intellectual honesty.

[kevinsBiblicaldiscussions]

What do you mean by the atonement doesn't save anyone? Isn't it at the cross where Jesus Christ canceled sin?