Are Calvinists Inconsistent with Romans 9?

Ask Pastor John
Episode: 1302

[jgr]

weren't all creatures away from God, hating him, & happily wallowing in our own sin, as summarized by Romans 3?
Idk how God elects in his sovereign might, but I'm quite sure that, if it wasn't for God's Grace, we'd all have our tickets to Hell.

[timothy]

Good answer concerning Romans 9; no sinner deserves heaven, but they do deserve bell based on God's righteousness and justice. This is the reason Ephesians 2:8-9 says we're saved by grace through faith, not of works; it is a gift of God. If God didn't choose us, we would never choose Him.

[macumus]

To show that God chooses us, just look at Paul’s salvation.

[Stills]

One thing a Calvinist will not tell you is that the potter and clay reference is from Jeremiah 18. Read the passage and you’ll see how the passage says everything the opposite of the Calvinistic view. The potter and clay analogy is about Israel and nations in general which can either be formed into honorable vessels or vessels for destruction BASED ON THEIR OWN CHOICES of obedience or rebellion. So much for determinism and absolute sovereignty and that’s why they won’t mention the reference when preaching on this.

Read Romans 9 as if you are a Jew making the objections and he is referring to Israel being blinded (so how can you blame them part…. referring to the blind Jews) and the gentiles then being brought in to salvation (The “that’s not fair” part about Esau but instead God chooses to show them mercy). The Isaac and Esau references are referring to gentiles, notice it was the 2nd sons being used for God’s purposes not the first. Israel is also Pharaoh in the illustration whose heart God hardened just as he did Israel. Why? to bring about his purpose of salvation to gentiles.

It’s actually a passage that EXPANDS the offering of salvation to many, rather than a narrowing of it. It is a picture of God’s incredible mercy and patience vs a predetermined wrath in store for all those that lost the salvation lottery to show that God is both merciful and mighty. Like huh? I call it the 3D art passage. Remember that stuff when all of a sudden it came off the page and you’re like “oh wow, I see it!” That is this passage but you’re likely reading it through your theological bias.

I had such a horrible view of God sadly until I had a right view of this text which you’ll then notice is consistent with the following chapters in Romans. Calvinists by their own admission will say that their interpretation of chapter 9 seems contradictory with the following chapters about free will but it’s actually not since God understands how it all works together even when we don’t. 🙄

[angloaust]

God is not obliged to save any
However it's a marvel he saved
A few
Strive to enter by the strait gate
Bring forth fruits meet for repentance

[urielmesenja]

I don't call myself anything other than a christian but i know that God is infinite.He already knew who would reject Jesus before He even created earth, that is how He is able to call us. That is how our actions and free will are still relevant.God is able to give us a gift of salvation because He already knows the infinite amount of choices we could make provided He even gave us infinite paths to take that do not even exist and wont ever.I also know that any one of us could potentially be who finds salvation on the cross so we must treat each individual as though they can see Gods glory with a bold faith and prayer over them.

[ahhh.its.adelle]

“GOD GOVERNS THE CHOICES OF ALL PEOPLE AND ALL PEOPLE ARE ACCOUNTABLE FOR THEIR CHOICES” not a contraindication, but it is a mystery. We don’t know how God does it, but He does it. Duet 29:29 it is a hidden work of the Lord.

[jazzmankey]

I’m so glad that person asked this question. The text says that God makes vessels for both Honor AND Dishonor. No one was a vessel of dishonor before God decreed that they would be. [Pro 16:4 NKJV] 4 The LORD has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom. I believe that God’s Justus is based on ownership. [Rom 9:22 NKJV] 22 [What] if God, wanting to show [His] wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath PREPARED FOR DESTRUCTION. The passage does not teach that the vessels of wrath prepared themselves to be so.

[milk_cow_blues]

I honestly believe that, as Christians, we often make the mistake of wanting to have the answer to everything. I believe that the Bible supports the idea that there are many mysteries that, perhaps, we will never know in this life. In the end, God will reveal to us (through the Holy Spirit) whatever He desires. Job, for example, could not understand why he suffered so much, but God had a redemptive plan and a purpose. When the Lord answers Job, he does not tell him why it brought him affliction, he confronts him by asking him if he knows everything that God knows.

For me, this is one of the greatest mysteries in the Bible: why God decided to save some. I believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, serve in my local congregation, read the Bible and pray every day. However, I look at my life and I am no better than the rest of the people. I sin too. I pray to God that I may be saved, and if I am, in what way am I better than the one who is not? I am a sinner and fell short of the glory of God. Only by grace through faith in Jesus am I saved. Thanks to what Jesus Christ did on the cross for me. I didn't do absolutely anything.

I have fallen to the point where I just hold on to my faith and ask God to have mercy on us. Because it is also biblical that God is love, He is merciful and compassionate, so what He determines will be good. I think it is up to us to simply trust Him, hold on, and be faithful. And above all, love him with all our heart, with all our mind and with all our soul.

[rmlances]

I am not even a Calvinist and this seems to be completely off the mark. Either we are capable of touching the perfection of a holy God as humans or we require the divine intervention of a savior, period.

[EdisonAquiles]

It is contradiction all the time. Saying that God control every choice is to make Him responsible for that choice. He choices. Therefore the calvinists made God responsible. And they need to use the expression "We don't know how". It's because in fact it contradicts the logical of simple and pure Scriptures.

[GATEKEEPERradio]

It seems to me to be a question of perspective. God knows the beginning from the end. We don’t.
We are given a mystery. We have a choice. You choose to speak the gospel or keep it to yourselves. You speak what you believe. If you do not go and tell you don’t really believe.
Faith to know God’s purpose for you is to simply go and tell. Matt 28:17-20

Some still doubt.

[gxwicvm]

Romans 9 is about Israel specifically and not salvation. If you read 8-11, this makes a lot more sense. If you read all of Romans you will see. Piper implies that this is automatically about salvation. Everyone deserves to be there, but the capacity of the cross is for all, and it should not be taught that it is only for some.

[emanuelkournianos]

JESUS CHRIST’S TEACHING ABOUT ELECTION AND PREDESTINATION

“Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin.... You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires.”
John 8:34, 44

This is what Jesus says:

“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me drags HIM, and I will raise HIM up at the last day.”
John 6:44

Notice that every person that the Father drags or draws to Jesus Christ is saved and raised at the last day.

So not everybody is drawn to Jesus or all would be saved. But we know not everybody is saved. (Matthew 25:46)

If a person is not dragged or drawn to Jesus by the Father choosing them (for reasons known only to God - Ephesians 1:4-5, 11) they will never come to Jesus because we are all born slaves to sin and dead in sin. ( Ephesians 2:1-5)

Jesus says:

“The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life. Yet there are some of you who do not believe. This is why I told you that NO ONE CAN come to me unless the Father has ENABLED them.”
John 6:63-65

If you do not believe what Jesus says above, then you are not one of Jesus’ sheep because Jesus says:

“You do not believe because you are not my sheep. My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, WHO HAS GIVEN THEM TO ME, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.”
John 10:26-30

“There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the LAST DAY!”
John 12:48

Notice that Jesus raises believers at the “last day” and also condemns unbelievers at the “last day.”

Therefore the events described in 1 Thessalonians 4:13- 5:4 take place at the “last day” and not at a heretical pre-tribulation rapture.

Jesus says:

“My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me!”
John 10:27

[donhaddix]

Romans 8:28-30 New International Version (NIV)

28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who[a] have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

[victorcritelli]

It in no way say God loved Jacob and Hated Esau BEFORE they were born
It states God chose before they were born and what was chosen? Genesis 25:21-23
There was something about this birth that greatly distressed her But God said“Two nations are in your womb,
Two peoples shall be separated from your body;
One people shall be stronger than the other,
This is actually the first clue we are not talking about individuel salvation but a nation for the purposes of 1 displaying Gods power and strength, Keeping of God's law for the world, and the vessel to bring about his seed,
Paul is saying Gods election in this regard was chosen in Jacob before they were born
But to make the point that he is not talking about in their life times he stated the older shall serve the younger so you understand, because at no point did Esau serve Jacob in their life time, But Jacob returned to him humbled
Next “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.” In which he is quoting Malachi 1
And what is going on here in Malachi is it that Esau was hated in the womb? NO not even close there was judgment on Esau or Edom as it was known for what they did to Israel as recorded in Obadiah 1:10-15
“For violence against your brother Jacob,
Shame shall cover you,
And you shall be cut off forever.
And what is being said about Jacob I loved? but that Jacob rejected Gods love and profaned the sacrifice and for this reason Gods judgment is going to come upon them IF they do not repent, But as usual Gods Open arms are always available IF they humble themselves

Remember the whole purpose of Romans 9 is to show Why even though Israel failed this does not Mean Gods Promises failed

[phieble]

We need to stop talking about God's love and his hatred / rejection in terms of conditional or unconditional when the Bible reveals that God is sovereign, meaning he is purposeful in using his omniscience, omnipotence, and total authority toward specific goals in history. Since God is sovereign, nothing is unconditional and everything depends on the decisions he has made in eternity past about how everything would play out. If God loves you and saves you, that is based on the condition that he determined before creation to give your soul to Jesus Christ to be redeemed so that you could enjoy his love and worship him forever, and if God hates you and rejects you, it is based on the condition that he predetermined to leave your soul captive to Satan through the spiritual death of your sin nature that you inherited from Adam, thus ensuring that you will continue on in hostility and rebellion against him and refuse to repent and surrender to Jesus in faith and ultimately end up in Hell. These decisions were made by God and not based on us or anything that we would do, but based solely on what God has willed which cannot be thwarted.

Therefore, it is not inconsistent to affirm with the Bible that while none of the elect deserve to be loved unto salvation and go to Heaven, ALL of the nonelect deserve to be rejected and go to Hell, because just like our being favored by God precedes what we do, the nonelect being hated by God precedes what they do, yet they deserve it not just because of their sin but because God has a right to do whatever he wills with what he made and if he decides to reject you then you deserve it because he is sovereign and he decides what is right.

At the same time, no one who is rejected by God and goes to Hell is going there ONLY because of God's choice but also because of their own sin and unrepentance. And contrary to what Piper said, we DO KNOW, how God sees to it that the nonelect become guilty of condemnation. In providence, God cursed all of Adam's descendants with a sin nature which binds everyone to Satan through the dominating desires of the flesh, and unless God intervenes to grant new birth by the power of the Holy Spirit and repentance and faith, we will remain in a state of blindness, hostility, and unrepentance, and by our actions deserve doubly to perish. This is, again, conditional upon whether or not God has chosen in eternity past to save someone or not, and if he hasn't chosen to do so he is not wrong because as our Sovereign creator he has the right to save some and reject others, and our decisions throughout history affirm rather than determine our destiny.

We are told why God decided to elect some and not others, but we are not told what he based his election and rejection on, and we don't need to know because what matters is that God is sovereign, just, and gracious, and it is for the purpose of sharing his love with his people to the maximal degree that he governs all things. All of these points are covered in Romans 9 and they are consistent.

[DarlaGuyton]

Why does the Bible say in so many places that Jesus died so that everyone would have a chance at everlasting life if he only died for the elect? What would be the purpose of all of us being here and going through all of this, and being emotionally tied to each other, if we don’t have free will?

[kathleenwharton]

+Cloudy Windy D..I read the bible cover to cover..once. In Matthew 6:33..Jesus said to Seek HIM and HIS Righteousness FIRST. That is what I do. He Helped me read the bible the second time and He showed me the verses Relevant for me. Those are the ones I read. Every word in the bible is Not relevant for me. I will Stay with Jesus..but thank you for your opinion.

[Jeremyb]

This answer really doesn't hold up. If God's love for Jacob (before any works) was unconditional, then a consistent interpretation would mean that his hatred for Esau (before any works) would also be unconditional. That is unless the Calvinistic interpretation is off track from what Paul is saying. To be clear, Paul was not quoting what God said before they were born... he was quoting what God said to Malachi after Edom had persecuted Israel. The love and hate for Jacob and Esau was the same concept of love and hate seen in Jacob's wives - Rachel and Leah. He loved Rachel more than Leah. It was the same "hate" that Jesus commanded when he said that if we did not hate our families then we could not be His disciple. It doesn't mean hatred, but rather "love less." Jacob was blessed with the national election and Esau was not. However, Paul is contrasting national election from the election to salvation... that's why he's saying that not all Jews were saved and yet Gentiles were saved.