Did God Hate Esau (Romans 9)?

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[drakoyaboi]

Thank you for quoting a reformed scholar. Everyone thinks calvinists believe this.

[dmk_yt]

I was actually just listening to a sermon on Romans 9, and the pastor discussed this exact point

[JabberWkie]

In my opinion, it’s terribly irresponsible for a pastor or person in a position of authority to neglect doing their due diligence on a passage to make sure they are communicating the meaning correctly, especially when it comes to something that is touching on the character of God.

[ajourneysaved]

He hated how easy esau would give. Trading your inherited future for a bowl of soup. This is an early reminder of how the spirit was willing, but the flesh was weak.

[Infalliblecatholic]

Michael thank you for the work you do, I wish for you and Sam shamoun to collaborate for something of a debate

[biscuitcake]

Ok, this is where I'm gonna have to disagree since I have actually read D J Moo on this. His point is exactly the opposite since he is establishing that Romans 9 is talking about individual salvation. He does go on to talk about how the hatred here should be better understood as a preference of Jacob over Esau not some personal internal feelings of antagonism against Esau. But his entire section on Romans 9 is to refute the concept that Romans 9 is about nations. It almost feels like you're being a bit disingenuous here by taking a sentence he wrote out of context and making it seem like he's advocating for a point he is specifically arguing against in that section.

[jaredmatthews]

I would love to see a video on Romans 9! It troubles many needlessly i feel

[HaleStorm]

Paul was referencing Malachi 1: 2-3 where this line was originally quoted. Interestingly the Greek work Paul used actually means hate. The Hebrew word in Malachi can be interpreted as “rejected” “displeased with” or “loving less than”

In Romans Paul makes it clear that this decision applied even when they were in the womb. This preferential status refers to something that occurred prior to mortal life and their spiritual capacity - which manifested itself in their lives. Fascinating stuff.

[foxesrox]

although im not reformed, I have grown less and less hostel towards it as ive gotten away from the strawman arguments against it

[robbieg.]

Doesn’t change the fact that the passage clearly supports Gods sovereignly choosing people prepared for wrath and others for mercy.

[gemguy]

God’s love for you is so intense that it’ll make the love for your best seem like hate

[adamn-nyeyam]

You're wrong brother. In that passage of Romans 9, Paul insinuate that the loving and hate of God was something declared before the children were born or had done anything good or bad. Consider context.

[wildgoose]

Steven Lawson, the preacher speaking here is also a scholar. So we have his scholarly interpretation, and Douglas Moo’s. Who should we listen to and agree with here? Should we listen and agree with either?
But I think a more important question here should be to consider what the context of Romans 9 is. Isn’t Romans 9 in the context of Romans 8? Which is talking about the salvation of individuals? Since the vast majority of Romans appears to be doctrinally addressing the sins and salvation of individuals, why should we view the section of Romans 9 differently?

[radiant_shade]

I interpret that verse, as a Jew, as G-d hating the idea that Esau carried on the covenant of Abraham and that G-d loved the idea of Israel (Jacob) inheriting the covenant, despite Esau being the first born (carrying the same type of case with Ismael and his younger brother Isaac)

[joshuagraham]

They say don't put a comma where God put a period, and then they proceed to add multiple asterisks and accompanying footnotes after every verse in the Bible where God says He loves us.

[logicaldude]

I don’t even call myself a Calvinist, but you do understand that talking about predestining a “group of individuals” means that each individual had to be a part of that decision… right?

Basic philosophical understanding of reality makes it evident that what God is is something that is control of every single event that occurs, just by virtue of its nature of being.

Romans 9 is talking somewhat about entire groups of people, but it is also talking about individual people. You absolutely cannot avoid this fact anywhere you turn in the Bible. Then you come to philosophy and basic understanding of physics, cause and effect, etc. and you understand quite quickly that even having one electron do what it’s not supposed to do puts the entire universe at stake.

Everything happens the way it’s supposed to. Reality is the mind of God, and God is not double-minded. There is only one God.

[LockeTheAuthentic]

Just a thought, but electing nations is the election of individuals.

It can hardly be that God had no thought to whom that elect nation would be.

[GHanBax]

God does not hate a person as per their essence but as per their activities. God hates the evil done by people, not their identity since their identity is founded in good who is God. God can't hate persons in their personhood apart from their actions, and persons can't be evil in essence as that doesn't ontologically make sense. They justify God hating people by pointing out that people are evil. But in what sense are people evil? It's clear that God LOVES people, and if we hold on to this then we should reject the idea that persons are essentially evil because God can't love evil. So humans being evil is referring to our activities, not identities. That however doesn't mean that people are not inherently sinful and are constantly tempted and influenced to fall, we are corrupted in our nature and due to nature.

[crazydays]

This view and presentation is both biblical and easy to be entreated ~
James 3, vs. 17

[Emperor-TitusAD]

How is God rejecting an entire nation of people that different than Him rejecting individuals? We would all agree He assigns which nations we are born into.