We Need To Talk About Neil Gaiman

Neil Gaiman was my favorite writer. Let's process this together.

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#booktube #books #neilgaiman #fandom

[inanimatecarbongod]

This case is angering, and I'm not even a megafan of Gaiman's work. There was a point well made on social media: "Before you judge Neil Gaiman, remember all the warmth and humanity in his work, the joy it brought. Then judge him even more harshly because you know he knows exactly how to be a decent person and does the opposite."

[cpmf]

This reminds me of a quote from Dune Messiah.

Here lies a toppled god,
his fall was not a small one.

We did but build his pedestal,
a narrow and a tall one.

[Androsynth]

It’s one of the sad truths of life that flawed, fucked up and even evil people can have talent and make amazing things. And I stop supporting them financially when it comes to light. And sometimes it’s so bad I can’t enjoy their work anymore.

But here’s the thing I try and remember: the special place those works of flawed people have in your heart? They’re not there JUST because of those authors. You bring huge parts of yourself to those stories to make them special: your life, your experiences, your sense of meaning.

And no amount of the author being shitty can take that away from you, even if the person is forever marred.

[ingridfitz]

I think putting people on pedestals and idolizing and being super fans of artists, authors, politicians, musicians and really just people is a recipe for disappointment.
As I got older and people in my real life such as relatives, teachers, co workers etc.. disappointed me greatly it helped me learn that lesson.
I enjoy peoples work a lot and may even collect it and admire the work, but I know in the back of my mind that I do not know these people. I hope they are wonderful but they may not be.
And that’s the thing about people. Even ones who do rotten things can create or do wonderful things and this is what makes humanity so messy.

[Johanna_reads]

So well spoken about this horrible situation. I first found out about Gaiman through Tori Amos's lyrics. She's mentioned him in several songs, and I always admired their loyal, longtime platonic friendship. I can't imagine how this news has been for her since she is a survivor of brutal sexual assault and a key spokesperson in the RAINN organization. This is very hard for us longtime book fans to process, and I'm sure many in his close circle also had no idea. 💔

[catie]

A mistake I think we make when talking about abuse and power, is separating "abusers" into their own class of citizen. We have a lot of social dialogue around clinical narcissism these days too which complicates it, and I just think it keeps us from seeing what's actually at play.

Neil is a person, just like all of us. He's done very good and wholesome and kind things, and he's done heinous horrible things. We're ALL capable of doing heinous and horrible things, but 98% of us choose not to.

Neil made an incredibly awful choice. AND we know that he made that choice *repeatedly*. He has untold victims at this point, we have no idea how many will come forward as time goes on, but anecdotally at least 14 spoke to Amanda Palmer.

My point thought is that we don't need him to be a monster to have done horrible and awful things. We don't need to other him. We need to hold him accountable and find out what tf else he's done.

And we need to look at WHY wealth and power corrupts people, or perhaps why corrupt people keep ending up with gross amounts of wealth and power. But comforting ourselves by believing abusers are just abnormally more evil than regular people doesn't actually has a positive effect imo.

Instead, it allows us to never ask what in our society and culture is creating this, and we need to know the answer if we want to stop it.

People who rise to fame consistently end up being horrific and awful. Why. We have to stop avoiding the fact that we could ALL make these choices, but we don't. Why don't we? Why did he?

It's not as simple as just carting folks off to prison, especially since cases like this so frequently favor abusers.

[kdj]

Part of what I think it is comes from us connecting to the art on such a deep level that we feel such a connection with the creators as well.

[shadowseer]

My thing is tho, why is expecting the bare minimum of decency holding someone to an impossible standard? I didn’t think Neil was a god, I just thought he was what he said he was. Should we assume everyone is a monster?

[Kritz_Reads]

I didn't know until this video. This is why I don't generally have a desire to meet famous people. I figure they can only disappoint. It is rough if you have spent years loving their work....to just drop that love when something like this hits. Those stories are now part of YOU. It is hard to separate.

[TheBookThing]

Thanks for this MJ. As someone of the same generation I have been a huge Gaiman fan for a long time. Sandman and Good Omens started me off and I’ve read most of his work for years.

When similar allegations were made about Warren Ellis, another one of that generation of British writers and artists who turned the American conic industry on its head, that was a bitter pill.

But this one sucked. Like you said, I always kinda assumed he was one of the good ones.

Why can’t we have nice things?

I think separation of art from artist is important. So many great writers and artists were such horrors of human beings that if that separation doesn’t exist, you end up consuming no art. But it’s bloody hard, especially when the artist in question is still around making that art.

There aren’t easy answers to this. But talking helps.

[redheadpinupreader]

I feel you on all of this. I was heartbroken and disappointed to hear about the Neil Gaiman allegations. I think we all believed Neil was a good person and he always seemed so lovely and polite but I believe the survivors and it's sickening to hear what's happened to them. Yeah we really shouldn't put people up on pedestals. We don't know what celebrities are really like or how they act in private. Omg yes! I'm such a Keanu Reeves fan too so I'd be so devastated if anything negative came out about him too.

[L-K-Jellyfish]

I just watched Nick Cave’s interview with Colbert immediately prior to this video. There are very interesting comparisons to make there. Nick has admitted openly that he was a nasty little guy at the start of his career. He has been honestly awful in the past. Being punk and part of the punk scene there was that licence to be a bad guy and you know what? If he had no talent at all and made a living doing something else, he would still have been like that, I am sure. I can accept Nick Cave as he is and love the beauty of his constantly developing and maturing and deepening work BECAUSE he never pretended to be anything else. The important difference was that Gaiman and Joss Whedon pretended to be on our side, when it was actually just charm, another tool in their seduction tool kit. Nick made a living out of being honestly problematic, and that helps the audience think through what he gives us in his art. At least you know to keep your heart protected. It’s the feeling that we’ve been deceived that makes us feel sick. It’s the sudden change in dynamic from safety to danger, even if it is not personal, that shocks us. If Gaiman offered one of my daughters an internship I would have squealed with joy and I could have made a massive mistake by letting her go! That is why revelations like this are frightening and cause such outrage. It’s not about perfection or idealisation. It’s about _safety_ .

[melissasaint]

I had always been an avid reader and my to-read stack was very tall when a couple friends started insisting I read him years ago.
One of them enthusiastically told me the plot of Coraline and they noticed, I guess, that I looked preoccupied and uncomfortable because they asked.
And I said, "well, the main theme of the story can be wanting to warn young readers about harmful strangers who want to love bomb you....of course. And a warning to parents to BE parents, no matter how constrained their time is.
But because you said he was partly inspired by his career preoccupying him so much while he was a parent ...and because it doesn't seem like he chose to slow down his career, even though he was already so successful....
The other message seems to be 'no matter how little time or or attention or affection I give you, no matter how low a priority you seem to be in my day to day life, don't you DARE risk loving someone else, because they will be worse than I am. In fact, don't you dare even try to IMAGINE a parent who will meet your emotional needs.' That's....wow.
That feels deeply manipulative and unsettling to me.... "

After that, they stopped talking to me about his work.
But I always stuck in my mind.
Writing that book while a parent seemed to be burying manipulation that borders on emotional abuse UNDER complex, nuanced art that critics will praise as "not didactic" and "a modern Grimms fairytale"...

It just made me feel glad that I was not raised by Neil Gaiman.
It felt like a little flicker of a hidden, very red flag for me.

It somehow made it all worse that the main character is required to save her own parents.... And then learn to be contented with the life that had previously left her feeling so lonely.
Possible undertones of parentification and scapegoating the child as **causing** the problem by experiencing a wish to have a little more parental attention?

And then, when the American movie was made, the ONE thing he didn't like about it was that she made a friend who helped save her from the Other Mother.
On the one hand, this reads as a feminist theme wanting her to save herself!
On the other, it reads as the author's discomfort from a departure of the themes I thought I had picked up on....the main character is allowed to make an emotional attachment who actually invests time and attention in her, and helps her, I stead of requiring her to push down her emotional needs and save the whole family.

Just...I don't know, man.
I didn't like it.

[Ginal]

I think both things can be true - women are victimized by men with power/celebrity AND some men don’t understand that some women can’t reject sexual advances because they don’t know how, they’re afraid of retaliation or rejection, or any number of other things. The proof of character in the man is when this imbalanced dynamic is pointed out to him and he modifies his behavior (or not).

[patriciafay-fl]

I remember how disappointed I was when I heard the allegations against actor Kevin Spacey. How I knew his incredible body of work would be clouded by the controversy

[Viktorious]

I adore Neil Gaiman's books and connected with many of them on a deep level. The Sandman introduced me to so many other incredible stories, myths, and artists. I met Neil Gaiman once. He was gracious and kind and took some moments out of his busy evening to talk to me. I can never think of that interaction the same way now. Clearly, we never really know who other people are, but I respected Neil Gaiman. I made the mistake of thinking he was a decent human. Obviously, there are other authors and artists who have done similar things and even worse. That doesn't make it any less awful. The other part of it that infuriates me is that Gaiman would dare to use his Autism as an excuse with one of his accusers. I am Autistic. I know the difference between right and wrong, probably more so than most neurotypical people. I've also been the victim of SA, like so many other Autistic people. Humanity is so disappointing.

[DavidLeeIngersoll]

Enough other people whose work I admire have turned out to be less than admirable people that this news about Gaiman didn't sting so much. The thing I try to remember is that people are complicated. People aren't good or bad. We're people. It's our actions that have moral consequences. We can genuinely do good things with one hand while using the other hand to stab and cripple.

[pandorabox]

I’ve had vague “alarm” bells about Gaiman for a while now (was a HUGE follower of his on LiveJournal), as there were just some things that were…off about him and what he was sharing with his young audience. But I pushed that aside because I did like his writing. But now? It’s something I’m not able to push aside any longer, and my heart hurts for these women.

And people can do morally great things to cover up the rot beneath the surface. It’s so hard to hold both points of view in our heads.

I’m sorry that you’re having to grapple with this, MJ, since you are such a fan of his. 💖

[nickdudesville]

I believe victims too, but allegations can be made by people who are not victims. How do you know who's a victim and who's not without due process?

[ArtBookshelfOdyssey]

Thank you for your thoughtful and careful words here. I’ve not heard of any news about him - so I might need to go find out what is going on. But this is such an important discussion to have about how do we separate creatives from their work if they turn out to be problematic. It’s one I struggle with concerning some of my own favorite authors ( like Dickens, J K Rowling and others). I really appreciate your insight here!