Taoist Meditation - Lao Tzu vs. Chuang Tzu

Taoist Lineage Holder Bruce Frantzis talks about the two philosophical approaches found within Taoism; the left wing extremely liberal approach epitomized by Chuang Tzu and the more conservative one embodied by Lao Tzu.
Bruce explains how many of Chuang Tzu's seemingly eccentric actions directly allowed him to manifest a fundamental doctrine of Taoism-spontaneity and its necessity towards letting go.

This footage was taken from Bruce's Discovering Inner Space and Letting go event in Oxford, United Kingdom.

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[NangongReng]

When I read about Taoism, I find a lot of similarities between it and Buddhism.

[Monkofmagnesia]

I love the teachings of Chuang Tzu! BTW, the audio seems messed up. It only comes out of one speaker, whether I use headphones or speakers.

[emdeewee]

Somehow this man makes me think of Tom Cruise in Magnolia. By the way, I don't see how Lao zi is more conservative, and Zhuang Zi is more liberal. Strange comparison. In fact, to me, a big part of Lao Zi is also is a ridicule of Confucius, who was supposed to be the real conservative cowboy. I do think Zhuang ZI is a bit more playful, but he still serves the Way.

[illsuive]

I'd enjoy listening to Mr Frantizis speak more in depth in regards to the philosophies of these two teachers. There are many subjects within the two main sacred texts of dao, that are difficult for people to understand and apply.

[annonimus]

Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu were not competitor's, they were not very different at all in fact. Chuang Tzu, I believe, even admit's to learning from Lao Tzu. They are very much brothers in rebellion. When I read Lao Tzu's Tao Te Ching, I don't receive a tight and rigid mood; Infact, I get the opposite. Just as I do with Chuang Tzu. I was surprised you said that. I enjoyed the rest.

[underdonkey]

yeh, one of the big contrasts I've seen is between things like buddhism, denies passion, whereas Kierikagaard believed that passion was important for life.

I think Chuang Tzu, very much like Aristotle, was almost always just trying to break down our concepts of reality and saying "whatever you think, you're wrong" and thus there is a fluidity and spontaneity that comes naturally, but cannot be bound. Sometimes things are measured, sometimes passionate.

[ChenStyleJohn]

"LaoZi loved a highly measured life.
ZhuangZi was a fan of... just let it rip."
:o)
Awesome.

[gejost]

@ChenStyleJohn Probably its a massive simplification tho. Even as he said, Chuang-zi also lived a "measured life.

[BenM]

I'm very new to looking into philosophical Taoism, but firstly I can't understand how Chuang Tzu can be labelled as a liberal and Lao Tzu a conservative, surely nothing can be that clear cut, especially in this context? I'd like to hear more from Bruce about how he came to this conclusion, because he speaks very briefly about Lao Tzu and doesn't really give enough justification for me. I think much can be gained from both philosophers, is creating this division necessary?

[knoxvilleguy]

@underdonkey5 - Buddhism teaches moderation rather than denying passion altogether OR being a hedonist or glutton. At least that's been my understanding. & mindfulness is a significant concept rather than " just let it rip " as Bruce Frantzis says of ZhuangZi / Chuang Tzu.
& if I understand correctly, Zen Buddhism also incorporates elements of Lao Tzu's teachings, presumably from the days of Chan Buddhism. After 25 + years of studying Taoism & Buddhism, there's much I don't get.

[ronin]

The point that I gather from this is that within the Daoist tradition, you have a more conservative viewpoint, embodied by LaoTzu, and a more liberal viewpoint, embodied by ChuangTzu. Understanding just a little about Daoism, I believe it is all relative.

When comparing Buddhism and Daoism, I think that Daoism is more liberal and Buddhism is more conservative. Yet Buddhism is liberal when compared to western religions.

[quietthomas]

When he's talking about the morality of spontaneity - I think he must be talking about ethics rather than morality. As morality is defined by codification, where as ethics comes from the Greek ethos, or Spirit, and is not concerned with dogmatism so much as intention (the spirit of things).

[zaroffhound]

ask your intellect to stand in the rain. with-hold umbrella.

[juliantreidiii]

@les555qq Is this a good Translation? This is not an adequate description of Chuang Tzu Lao Tzu. It's very strange. Our Chinese language does not have such a simple simple viewpoint, moreover he is full of confidence but does not have the truth, there is no truth he speaks. He must come straight to the point only then would he be right. Foreigners that go to the mainland pretend to immediately became philosophers or think they became philosophers .

[gatoandrew]

Yin and yang but the grey area where they blend is where the light hearted live...

[truevoiceofsanity]

@ChenStyleJohn Awesome but I disagree. Barring the fact we don't know if either was real or no. Lao-tse for example spoke considerably about adaptibility. That is one of many elements that could color this idea of one being conservative and the other an anarchist. That said, i want to listen at another level

[mutualmonster]

Great video, but Frantzis is wrong about spontaneity. Spontaneity is a big part of Chan/Zen/Seon/Thien. It's not unique to Taoism. And although Taoism and Chan did indeed interface, Taoism and Chan/Buddhism retain such major differences that the argument some make, that "well, Zen is basically Taoism + a *tiny* bit of Buddhism so you can't say really say that spontaneity is a truly a characteristic of a Buddhist/Chan tradition, " really just comes from being uninformed, misinformed, and maybe even arrogant. Since Chan and Taoism did interface a bit, I'm surprised Frantzis is unaware of, or chooses not to acknowledge, spontaneity in Chan. Even still, this is good video and I'm grateful to Master Frantzis and Energy Arts.

[fntime]

@underdonkey5 You think too much and you are wrong thinking!
Kierkagaard was the same way! This path doesn't offer insight
or happiness, but maybe these are things you are not interested
in!
Your thought process is very similar to Herman Goring!
Have you bought your jackboots yet? Or just gained weight?
No, well you will~

[Kostly]

But, always, Chuang is contained in Lao. If that is not true, then why would CHuang so revere Lao? Just as all is contained within the Tao. So, I guess, I was also contained in LAo Tse. My consciousness was contained within LAo Tse's because I so identify, at a primal level, with the wisdom of Lao AND Chuang Tse. All is contained within the TAo and all knowledge can be extracted from it. But, all the answers will never yield from it. That's not to say we can't have fun trying to get them!

[Kostly]

Hmmph, I guess I'm of the school of Chuang Tse. But, now I think too much. So I guess I'm becoming Lao Tse. Maybe as I'm growing I'm transitioning from CHuang to Lao, Young to old. But, Chuang Tse is primacy, alpha. Lao Tse is, I guess, the result. Sort of like the evolution of the universe. At first God *yes, I believe in God....fully a taoist sensibility, though let it rip with the. Then things stabilized and were very measured, predictable, relatively at ease, flowing.