Walking Through Romans 9 with a Calvinist

Dr. Leighton Flowers welcomes a Calvinistic friend, Paul Smith, on the broadcast to walk line-by-line through Romans 9. JOIN US!

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[jackcampbell]

Thank you so much brother Flowers for helping me to walk away from a Calvinist perspective on salvation. Your arguments were crystal clear concerning these contentious matters.

[robinduncan]

Dr. Leighton Flowers was on 🔥 today and so edifying in his message!! Amen
Thank you for having Paul on 👍🏼

[omnitheus]

Leighton would have destroyed James White if he had been as candid and open and honest as Paul Smith today. Respect to you Paul. You've far more courage than James White :)

[labsquadmedia]

43:05 - "To be clear, it's not just a "gift of God". It's an effectual gift, given to some people and withheld from all others...on your view." This was such a wise and thoughtful clarification. I'm thankful that Dr. Flowers does this in a kindly way, but that he doesn't allow the conversation(s) to be muddied by accepting truncated definitions or representations that avoid stating the "rub" of the Calvinistic worldview baldly. The shine of Calvinism soon tarnishes when its tenets are stated in their full sense or when their logical ramifications are admitted.

[lauren]

This was so nice! I love that it was a real discussion from both sides and not just a hurling of false accusations and insults at Leighton!

[josephhaurik]

Great respectful conversation. Both of you were gentlemanly. I'm looking forward to the next conversation as you continue through the text.

[marisademore]

Have only watched 16 minutes so far, so this point may get addressed shortly ... When the Calvinist gentleman refers to the election of Israel he assumes the term 'election' refers to them being elected to salvation whether they wanted to be saved or not, but the term election doesn't mean that. Individuals born into the Jewish line still had to express personal faith in God in order to be saved: 'Abram believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness'. Salvation has always been by grace THROUGH faith. Israel was elected to show forth the glories of God and to be His mouthpiece to the nations to show how they too could be saved. Salvation wasn't for Jews only, even in Old Testament days, back then strangers - i.e. gentiles - could be saved as well. They just had to do the same as individuals In Israel and trust and worship the true and living God. Don't have the Scriptures at hand, but they are there. Will continue listening now 🙂🙌✝️🙌

[richardgarcia]

I have this exact same issue with Calvinist I come across.. they cannot let go of their presuppositions. They just read it into everything and don’t even realize they are doing it.

[undergroundpublishing]

This is painful to listen to: (at 1:00:00).

The allegory of Isaac has nothing to do with who God chooses except that he chooses what is according to his promise (to save those who believe) vs. what is according our works. The clear distinction between Isaac and Ishmael is painstakingly laid out in Galatians years before Romans was written, so the meaning of Romans 9 should not be a surprise.

It has nothing to do with deterministic election, but a covenant of grace apart from works.

[omnitheus]

59:00 Leighton deliberately defined what Isaac was chosen for - the seed of Christ - back when both were discussing Galatians 4. However, Paul didn't even listen to him and then tries to make out Leighton agreed with something he never did. Leighton qualified the response...

[joserodolforamirez]

There is so much more to being a follower of Christ than this. But it's beautiful to really know the heart of God.

[jimmme]

This was wonderful! I look forward to the next episode. It helps all of us understand both sides. Most likely neither side is going to be convinced of the alternative but that's not the point for me, it's to understand how someone can have a different view. It was also great to allow someone to finish their point! Well done.

[tomparker]

Would love to see leighton engage Voddie Bacham

[ocarcara]

I love first the respect they both are having!!! I think Flowers kept pointing the difference in the reason (through faith x God pick some and didnt pick others). The bible context and the character of God leaves no doubt the everyone have the opportunity but if one accept the gift or refuse God for his own choice let man decide it. Thank you Father for your goodness, power and glory....

[danielzimmerman]

2 Corinthians 12:9-10

“But He said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for My power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me. For the sake of Christ, then, I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities. For when I am weak, then I am strong.”

Sovereign LORD, Holy are You. Press upon us revelation of our weakness within ourselves in order for Your Strength to shine through us for Your Word in Isaiah 40:29 states that “who lacks might He increases power” Be our Strength. Be our power. In Christ Alone Amen 🙏

[Lumberjack-hsgb]

Dr. Flowers is so gracious and humble. My analogy still stands however. Flowers is like a mighty Orca whale playing with a baby seal to train their young how to hunt, hahahaha! And this would be the same should Dr. James White ever decide he’d like to converse with Dr. Flowers concerning his false system of TULIP ☝️

[Terrobul]

1Peter 2:6
Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture,

“Behold, I lay in Zion
A chief cornerstone, elect, precious,
And he who believes on Him will by no means be put to shame.”
7 Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient,

“The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone, ”
8 and

“A stone of stumbling
And a rock of offense.”
They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed.

Who are THEY that stumble? Sounds like the “they” that stumble should/could have been obedient to the word but were disobedient instead and that’s why they stumble.

What a great discussion this was! I loved everything about it! Thank you Paul for coming on. Thank you both for being respectful toward one another. Can't wait for the next discussion.

[otiscorn]

Paul's interpretation is ruthless. According to Galatians anyone can become Abraham's seed through faith. Paul, a "pharisee of the pharisees" died for this truth. To Christ be all the glory.

[Jenn_Psalm.-]

Your comment about God using means to persuade Jonah and Paul to what God wants....reminds me how God's punishment of Nebuchadnezzar persuaded him to then believe in God. Why would the Lord even do that if he could simply choose Nebuchadnezzer as an elect?