Walking through Romans 9 with a Calvinist

Today Dr. Flowers and Paul Smith pick up where they left off walking through Romans 9. JOIN US LIVE!


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[Soteriology]

I misspoke about Levi and Simeon raping their sister. I meant the sin they committed in responding to that rape.

[darrennelson]

Leighton’s interpretation of Romans 9, and Provisionism in general, has so much more explanatory power - biblically, philosophically, experientially - as well as bypassing some really atrocious conclusions about Gods character.

[gdmead]

@soteriology101 please, please, please make a short out of the 43 minute mark with his response to hardening a reprobate - that whole interaction from Leighton and Paul is gold!!!

[oprophetisfake]

Leighton and Paul Smith really do show how to have a respectful disagreement on these issues.

I obviously don't agree with Paul's view but I do appreciate him being respectful even when he is disagreeing with Leighton.
This is a pleasant change from another well dressed Calvinist who does not seem to be able to understand the spelling let alone the theological differences between Arianism and Ar *_min_* ianism.

[Mary-sxzg]

Love how U don't shy way from he text and continue to have one Calvinist after the other on their favourite proof text

[steveobrien]

This was one of the best conversations so far. Peaceful, respectful, and clear. Nice job guys.

[apilkey]

@44:32 @Paul Smith references the original passage the Apostle Paul is referencing in Romans 9:15 which we know is in EXODUS 33:19 centred around the golden calf incident.

Paul Smith claimed the original account of God showing mercy on whom He shows mercy was unconditional.

This is false.

If we look at the surrounding text back in Exodus God was going to destroy EVERYONE but decided to have mercy on those whom repented.

And also notice this was in relation to PHYSICAL destruction not spiritual salvation or damnation.

So “mercy” in the context was not “salvation” but rather punishment.

God didn’t arbitrarily for no reason show mercy to certain people choosing them for no reason over others.

It had nothing to do with salvation, but had everything to do with punishing the Israelites for building a golden calf and God Sovereignly deciding to show them mercy by not obliterating the entire nation of Israel as punishment.

We need to look at what just finished happening in the account of Moses in Exodus 32-35.

In Exodus 32 Moses had gone up the mountain to meet with the Lord and to get the 10 commandments.

When the people saw that Moses delayed coming down the mountain in Exodus 32:1 they built a golden calf.

In Exodus 32:7 the people corrupted THEMSELVES, God allowed it, He didn’t cause it:

In EXODUS 32:7

7 And the LORD said unto Moses, Go, get thee down; for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt, have CORRUPTED THEMSELVES:

…Then a few verses later in Exodus 32:10-14 God says He’s going to destroy the people and Moses beseeches God to have mercy:

EXODUS 32:10-14

10 NOW THEREFORE LET ME ALONE, THAT MY WRATH MAY WAX HOT AGAINST THEM, AND THAT I MAY CONSUME THEM: and I will make of thee a great nation.
11 AND MOSES BESOUGHT THE LORD HIS GOD, and said, Lord, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand?
12 Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? TURN FROM THY FIERCE WRATH, AND REPENT OF THIS EVIL AGAINST THY PEOPLE.
13 REMEMBER Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever.
14 AND THE LORD REPENTED OF THE EVIL WHICH HE THOUGHT TO DO UNTO HIS PEOPLE.

...so according to those verses who did God sovereignly decide to have mercy on?

Was it random or was it because Moses pleaded with the Lord?

... if we keep reading in Exodus 32 what was the outcome when Moses went down the mountain?

Did he randomly pick people to be on God’s side and then drag them over or did he ask the people and then let them come freely?

EXODUS 32:26

26 Then Moses stood in the gate of the camp, and said, WHO IS ON THE LORD's SIDE? LET HIM COME UNTO ME. And all the sons of Levi gathered themselves together unto him.

The following verses in Exodus 32:27, 28 says who was judged.

It was the men that did not come to the Lord’s side in vs. 26 and NOT JUST RANDOM PEOPLE:

EXODUS 32:27, 28

27 And he said unto them, Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.
28 And the children of Levi did according to the word of Moses: AND THERE FELL OF THE PEOPLE THAT DAY ABOUT THREE THOUSAND MEN.



...Now let’s continue to look at what’s happening as the Lord continues to show mercy on whom He will show mercy and it’s NOT random at all.

I encourage you to meditate on the scriptures that have been clearly revealed to us and clearly show who God has mercy on:

EXODUS 32:30-35

30 And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses said unto the people, Ye have sinned a great sin: and now I will go up unto the Lord; peradventure I shall make an atonement for your sin.
31 And Moses returned unto the Lord, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold.
32 YET NOW, IF THOU WILT FORGIVE THEIR SIN--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.
33 And the Lord said unto Moses,
👉WHOSOEVER HATH SINNED👈 AGAINST ME, HIM WILL I BLOT OUT OF MY BOOK.
34 Therefore now go, lead the people unto the place of which I have spoken unto thee: behold, mine Angel shall go before thee: NEVERTHELESS IN THE DAY WHEN I VISIT I WILL VISIT THEIR SIN UPON THEM.
35 AND THE LORD PLAGUED THE PEOPLE,
👉BECAUSE👈 they made the calf, which Aaron made.

In the next chapter we see the people mourning and then freely seeking the Lord of their OWN CHOOSING in Exodus 33:7:

EXODUS 33:7

7 And Moses took the tabernacle, and pitched it without the camp, afar off from the camp, and called it the Tabernacle of the congregation. And it came to pass, that EVERY ONE WHICH SOUGHT THE LORD WENT OUT unto the tabernacle of the congregation, which was without the camp.

Then in verses 12-19 of Exodus 33 we see Moses ask God to show him His way IF he’s found grace in His sight.

God responds by saying that BECAUSE Moses has found grace in His sight that He will do that which Moses has asked.

*So we see again God choosing to showing mercy not for no apparent reason but
👉BECAUSE👈 Moses has found grace in His sight.*

Then in the very next chapter in Exodus 34 God makes a covenant with the people and shows us who He will have mercy on.

He tells the people to observe and obey and to take heed and gives them commandments to obey and we know the consequences IF they don’t.

*If we read the whole account of the Israelites God ALWAYS shows mercy on them when they cry out to Him for mercy.*

There is still justice but mercy is ALWAYS shown.

*This is basic spiritual milk that God chooses arbitrarily and sovereignly to show mercy to anyone He chooses ...and we know that He chooses to show mercy on those who humble themselves and repent and cry out to Him for mercy.*

This is NOT a mystery, this is a simple truth of the loving and merciful God that we serve.

[SpielbergMichael]

This was wonderful. I love and admire both these guys, how calmly and politely they can discuss and unpack their with love and patience towards each other. And they obviously both really believe the Bible has absolute authority and just want to obey and believe whatever it says (if only we could understand what it says).

For me, the most helpful parts were highlighting that Jacob was chosen for a purpose and that not choosing Esau did not mean damning him, and that God blessed Esau and gave Esau a land and even protected them. It was only later that God punished them for sin they did during their lifetime (not before they were born).
Imagine - if Esau’s nation hadn’t later sinned and been punished, Calvinists wouldn’t be able to interpret it the way they do.

The Jeremiah 18 potter and clay passage can’t be ignored. The Bible has to be taken as a whole.
If we are humble, God will prepare us into vessels of mercy.
If we are proud/stubborn, God will prepare us into vessels of wrath.
In verse 23 when it says “beforehand” Calvinists think that means before the creation of the world, but isn’t it very possible that it means before the day of judgement?

It was also powerful that in Exodus God (through Moses) gave the people a choice: who would come over to Moses’ side, and it was based on how people responded to that choice as to who was shown mercy or wrath (it wasn’t arbitrary).

God bless both these men and God bless this YouTube channel !

[cecilspurlockjr.]

This poor young man bless his heart has been so ideologically possessed by the lie of Calvinism that he can't even follow the plain reading of the text..I hope GOD will open his eyes to the truth...GOD bless you n yours Brother Flowers..

[lindajohnson]

Simple foreknowledge explains so much: by knowing who would choose to believe and be saved, God can choose among them for service.

And the Bible does not say we are "saved by grace, alone", much less by some _irresistible_ grace. It says we are saved *"by grace, through faith".*

[JohnQPublic]

This video reminds me of the Game Show Host’s response to the “Billy Madison” answer. In fact I’m thinking of suing Reformed Theology due to a decline in my cognitive abilities and a loss of brain cells after listening to a Calvinist attempt to explain Romans 9.

[thestudent]

Levi and Simeon did not rape their sister. They took revenge on Shechem after their sister was violated.

[valanme]

Excellent discussion gentlemen. Highly educational.

[R.L.KRANESCHRADTT]

1:27:50, it's painful to watch. Paul is so consumed with ideological Calvinist precepts he literally cannot see scripture without them. He's auto-triggered by the words mercy, grace, and choice and cannot avoid reading unilateral salvation into whatever text they are found.

[R.L.KRANESCHRADTT]

1:42:50 God's choice of Jacob over Esau was certainly merciful and gracious. But again, what is the purpose of the choice? It is to choose the linage through which the Christ/promise would come. It could only be one, or the other. God was merciful to Jacob on this point and not Jacob. Esau was not damned, the term 'hate' was not used or translated in the context Augustine supposed and Calvin confirmed. It simply means preferred one over the other and it had nothing to do with anything they had done, and scripture says it was made while they were in the womb, before they were born, not before they existed. Life begins at conception.

[R.L.KRANESCHRADTT]

40:20 We're already at "mystery" Paul's eyes tell it all, up and to his left.😊

[apilkey]

@34:30 Paul admits those who were hardened/blinded in Romans 11:7 are the reprobate.

But the Apostle Paul says otherwise.

The people that reformers are against and give no hope to in Romans 11:7, 8 are STILL GIVEN HOPE BY PAUL in verses 11, 14, 24, 25, 30, 31, 32.

The Apostle Paul strongly disagrees with the reformed OPINION of Romans 11:7, 8.

[R.L.KRANESCHRADTT]

19:52 The point is for 'what purpose' were they chosen? The story is not about the Salvation of individual, however, just as God told Rebecca there were two nations in her womb... both from Abraham/Isaac/Jacob..., only one of the twins could carry the direct linage of the promise, i.e., Christ, and God decided/chose/elected which one that would be. And it was not Esau, for reasons known only to God.
Rom.9:11 For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;
Unfortunately, Paul is held captive by the baggage of the Calvinist 'buzz' words. When he sees the word 'elect' or 'chosen', etc. he automatically concludes that literally always means unilateral salvation even if he is willing to agree it can have another meaning too.

[JohnQPublic]

*REFORMED THEOLOGY REFUTED IN ONE SENTENCE:* Romans 9:13 “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” The word ἐμίσησα i.e. emisēsa translated by Calvinist translators as *”HATED”* in order to make it fit their man-made theology also means *”LOVED LESS”.* Which means the actual GOD of the Bible loved Esau.

[R.L.KRANESCHRADTT]

36:00 The grafting back in of the hardened Jews in Rom.11 is conditional... NOT Unilateral. God is not choosing anyone for any reason other than their belief, and he has not punished anyone for any reason other than 'unbelief'. Discard Augustinian Total Depravity and it's easy, the problem vaporizes. Rom.11 :23"And they also, ... IF.... they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.