Yaron Answers: Why Don't Capitalism's Defenders Use Ayn Rand's Moral Arguments?

[TeaParty]

There is no rational defense of collectivism. Man has rights. Man is not a sacrificial animal for society.

[spudmustang]

The 1st reason that I don't use Rand's moral arguments is that, in order to persuade someone to agree with you on an issue, you have to start in the same place (or mindset) and work from there. If I start from an objectivist viewpoint, people either simply don't understand or instantly disagree because of their existing views on morality. The 2nd reason is that, other than on a personal level, most people see morality as irrelevant. Their only concern is how something will benefit them.

[TheKibeer]

I even found a link between psychological term of healthy self esteem and rational self interest.

I strongly believe, that people being hooked up on self sacrifice do have this lack of healthy self esteem. They don't trust themselves in core and therefore put others, the society above themselves. Of course your ego has to live on something, so they make their altruism in to a virtue where they can feel good and better at least than those greedy selfish bastards.

[TheKibeer]

'We are all approval junkies - fear me or revere me, but please think I'm special.'
Jake Green

Those with ego hooked up on 'being nice and compassionate ' rightfully fear and disdain those arrogant, narcissistic, $/power hungry egoists.
What they don't realize though, they have the same problem and they are dangerous as well. Road to hell etc. One is overcompensating and second is downplaying his importance.

How this happens?Parental neglect (lack of love, appreciation), abandonment(nursery)

[LucisFerre]

If you understood Objectivism, you would know that the selfishness Rand talked about was rational self interest, & has nothing to do with not sharing. What she railed against was the false idea that transactions are zero sum, lose-win, be they personal, financial, emotional, etc. Ergo people think that losing on purpose (altruism) is necessary for others to win. That would necessarily make self interest exploitive. The truth is, win-win is the norm, & no one's harmed by my personal achievements.

[TeaParty]

> Free the Market, Free the People!

Is that a Bob Marley tune?

[LucisFerre]

BTW, here's an interesting tidbit.
"I cannot agree with those who rank modesty among the virtues. To the logician all things should be seen exactly as they are, and to underestimate one’s self is as much a departure from truth as to exaggerate one’s own powers." ~ Sherlock Holmes.

Would you say that the character Mr. Holmes showed "negative" pride?

[Hooga]

The only problem I have with the moral arguments, are that there is a slight incompatibility in advocating economic selfishness, or rather ethical egoism if you want to as a good precept, and then expect charitable acts. If Ayn Rand's philosophy was accepted by a majority of the population, we might be living in a better place in economic terms, but you wouldn't have eliminated any problems socially, morally or ethically in my opinion.

[slybuster]

9.
Actually, I'm going to real nice and post it right here for you:

Semantic: The etymological fallacy as a semantic error is the mistake of confusing the current meaning of a word with the meaning of one of its etymons, or of considering the meaning of the etymon to be the "real" or "true" meaning of the current word. If one's goal is to communicate, then the "real" or "true" meaning of a word is its current meaning. Since the meanings of words change over time, often considerably, ...

[RodCornholio]

Reason #1: they would lose their job.

[slybuster]

1/3
For start, the OBJ movement is very much rooted to Rand's authority, her philosophical system in fact justifies such (e.g. having actively named an authoritative intellectual heir in Peikoff). It is not an adhom to point out the way in which she herself influenced the movement and continues to do so today.

[LucisFerre]

[[Humility is a virtue]]
-
Humility is self-humiliation, touted as a virtue by people who think that self-humiliation is the necessary alternative is irrational boastfulness. Christians consider pride to be one of the "7-deadly sins", Hubris in Greek is translated as 'self esteem' in the Orthodox church. "Humility" is the opposite of having self esteem. Pride is a rational response to personal achievement. Humility is to own ones shortcomings but attribute every achievement to "god" or others.

[NicolasAntonioJimenez]

I think it would be fair to add a fourth reason: That some people (especially politicians) are afraid to use those moral arguments because they would alienate certain constituencies (especially those that fetishize centrism and "pragmatism").
I think this is the same reason that some politicians and other advocates of leftist views don't make more arguments, but instead insist on repeating the myth that collectivism just works better.

[slybuster]

2/3
That's called historical analysis and such is a valuable tool with which to build academic models of contextualised understanding. Adhom would be accusing ARI of supporting Israel because Mr. Brook here is ex-israeli intelligence (look it up). For an in depth early historical analysis of the movement (more than space can allow here) I suggest Rothbard's "The Sociology of the Ayn Rand Cult." He is a libertarian, not a bleeding heart liberal. (I'm not presenting his view as infallible)

[slybuster]

3/3
I also suggest checking out The Atlas Society researching its break with ARI. Robert Nozick is another scholar who has treated Rand academically (and somewhat sympathetically).
Before we go deeper, consider this scene: /watch?v=o8MVFoiw-dw
It made me feel great to see Dagney stand up to the corrupt official. A lot of ARI arguments make me feel good. The argument's substance is actually more emotive than rational. It is in fact a straw man devoid of nuance, a false dilemma. To be continued...

[slybuster]

Google Rothbard's: "The Sociology of the Ayn Rand Cult." Rand (mis)labels her novels 'Romantic'--this somewhat shelters the 2D characters and straw man articles presented. The Randian way of thinking calls for black/white ideology (similar to how a 5 year old sees the world) and promotes in/out group conflict bias. Notice: I've said nothing against liberty, individualism, and capitalism--Rand is not the sole authoritative voice on these and 'The Virtue of Selfishness' is still well-worth a read.

[slybuster]

Figure what out? If you want to have a conversation, start by making sense. I bought into Rand hard--I read almost all of her work, Peikoff's 'Objectivism', and countless articles in the OBS. I was even going to enter the Atlas Shrugged essay contest. This is after studying philosophy and history at a prestigious University. I began using my history brain and examining the roots of the Randian movement. Google Rothbard's "Sociology of the Ayn Rand Cult." It says more than I can in this space.

[MrEnlighteneddespot]

Do you believe that altruism, even in its voluntary form, is always immoral?

[slybuster]

12.
Yeah, that's what I thought.

[LucisFerre]

Humility:
Synonyms: lowliness, meekness, submissiveness.
Antonyms: pride.
~ Dictionary (dot) com

'Don't need your redacted version of "pride". Pride is pride, one of the deadly sins. As mentioned the Greek hubris is translated as self esteem in the Orthodox church. Take your pick, pride or self esteem. 'Same thing. Apologetics not required. Like it or not, Christianity is about self-loathing and loathing the human species as lowly carnal-minded creatures that can only be "saved" by grace.