Unconditional Election on Trial (Session 3 - Calvinism on Trial)

Session 3 for the Calvinism on Trial series

[bendavies]

You even mention it! The King had to GIVE the man a garmet! The man didn’t have one so he was thrown out. That has nothing to do with his own ability.

[christopherbocciardi]

Have you ever thought about the verse that says, "We love Him because he first loved us"? When did he first love us? I'll tell you when: before the foundation of the world, when he chose us, unconditionally, in Christ, to be holy and blameless in his sight. Why any Christian would run away from this is beyond me.

[bendavies]

Even more to prove that chapter 9 is about salvation in the beginning of the chapter Paul talks about him desiring that he could take their place and be condemned. That is salvific language and continues on through chapter 9

[lifestylehomestead]

This is such an excellent look at the etymology of elect, chosen!!! Thank you so very much! I have been praying that give me more understanding as I am not a Calvinist because I read the Bible without being taught this teaching beforehand. This study will surely help with my apologetics.

[bendavies]

Chapter 8 is all about salvation as well, and moves right into chapter 9 because there are no chapters in the Greek. Paul is moving from talking about salvation and continue talking about it in chapter 9

[bendavies]

You dodged having to walk through the whole chapter of Romans nine, You took Romans nine all over the place. Within its context you would never reach those conclusions. The whole chapter is about gods choice to mercy or show wrath on who he pleases. And the example is The individuals Jacob and Esau quote before they had done anything good or bad”AND “This is why I raised pharaoh up “because he is an individual! Paul even states “you will then say to me how does he still find fault, who can resist his will? “

[TheBereanVoice]

1 Cor. 1 makes it clear that God has not chosen believers because they have believed or because they were superior to others. verse 30 makes it clear that it is of God that believers are in Christ. It is not of the believers themselves.

[christopherbocciardi]

"Paul says everything's working according to the plan in the scripture." Whose plan? God's? Or man's? Well, according to the teaching in this video, I would have to conclude it's man's plan. Am I wrong? (The statement quoted above occurred around the 33 minute mark of this video.)

[christopherbocciardi]

Have you ever thought about Revelation 5:9, which says, "You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased for God persons from every tribe and language and people and nation"? Is it by chance that Jesus will end up saving people from every tribe and tongue and people and nation, or was that the plan? Did God just get lucky or did he bring about that result by his sovereign power? It's not that hard to figure out.

[christopherbocciardi]

Well, I finally made it to the end of this video, and all I can do is shake my head and say, "Man! I'm glad I'm not an Arminian." Sadly, the lengths to which you have to go to deny what is clearly taught in scripture are on full display here.

1 Thessalonians 1: 4-5:
"For we know, brothers loved by God, that He has chosen you, because our gospel came to you not only in Word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction."

And when did this choice occur?
Before the foundation of the world.
(See Ephesians 1:3, 4)

Was this choice conditional or unconditional? Election unto salvation, which is what is being described in the passage from 1Thessalonians quoted above, is clearly unconditional. (See -- and you knew I was going to go here -- Romans 9:9-24. Also Romans 8:29-30)

[TheBereanVoice]

When do you think God purposed all that He was going to do in His world? Eph. 1:11 clearly states that He is the one who effectively accomplishes all according to His counsel [will]. If that is true, His purpose must have existed prior to His working all things according to it. If we are the called according to His purpose, His purpose must have existed prior to the calling.

[TheBereanVoice]

You need to ask yourself whether in Romans 11 Paul was speaking about physical blessings or spiritual blessings. Romans 9 makes it clear that what Israel was seeking was justification before God. They were rejected because they did not seek it by faith. Romans 11 states that Israel [the nation] did not obtain what it was seeking, but the elect have obtained it.

[TheBereanVoice]

You don't seem to understand that God's eternal decree does not preclude the use of means to accomplish it. We seek to pursuade sinners because that is the means God has chosen to accomplish what He has determined will occur.

[TheBereanVoice]

What you have overlooked is the fact that there are different senses in which people are "in Christ." In the mind and purpose of God, believers were in Christ from the foundation of the world. Eph. 1:4 does not state that God chose Christ and we became the elect when we were existentially united to Him. The verse states that HE CHOSE US. Even in eternity past, God did not contemplate us apart from Christ. God did not predestine us to be adopted after we believed. That would be postdestination.

[TheBereanVoice]

You seem to have overlooked the fact that God is the one who called Abram out of Ur. He did not call anyone else?

[TheBereanVoice]

Wrath has nothing to do with eternal destiny???? That may be the most banal comment I have heard in a long time. You might want to rethink that one. In the very passage you are speaking about, being a vessel of wrath is set over against being a vessel of mercy prepared beforehand for glory. Do you honestly believe being prepared for glory has nothing to do with eternal destiny?

[TheBereanVoice]

Apart from your faulty presupposition that blinds you to the truth, why would you choose a secondary lexical meaning for "elect" or "chosen" instead of the primary meaning?

[michaelfalsia]

Please show me where free will and a natural repentance that cause God to save and sanctify the apostle Paul? No sinners prayer. No seeking Christ. No offer by Christ as if Paul had anything to say or contribute to his salvation as a chosen vessel in the service of Jesus. No choice in the matter of his apostleship. No choice in the scope and sphere of his calling. No say in the manner of his suffering, imprisonment, and death. Paul says he is a pattern of salvation of all believers. The wicked and perverted mind and heart of man imposing his enslaved sinful will on the holy scriptures. We will see how all this plays out on Judgment Day when the secrets of men's hearts are revealed by Paul's gospel. I give all glory and honor to God, who saved a wretch like me in spite of my path to perdition because of what Christ provided on my behalf as Savior and redeemer. If God didn't intervene and deliver me from the power and curse of sin, I should have been lost and damned forever.

[TheBereanVoice]

It appears from your misinterpretation of Matt. 21 that you think some sinners are better by nature than others. If that is the case, first of all, who distinguished them from other sinners who were more rebellious or whatever [Consider 1 Cor. 1:29-31; 4:7], and why to these better sinners not have a reason and right to boast in the presence of God.

[timothyhodges]

It's too simple that's why it's beyond you.