Can you lose or leave your Salvation?

Some like to speak of "once saved always saved" or "the perseverance of the saints" but the bottom line is about Eternal Security.

Dr. David Allen with SWBTS is on again with Dr. Leighton Flowers to discussion the doctrine of Eternal Security. Specifically, the controversial passage out of Heb. 6 is expounded upon from one Traditional perspective.

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[christianchris]

CHAPTERS:

00:00 - Video Introduction
08:12 - Interview: Comments on Malaysia
11:58 - Topic Introduction
12:55 - Hebrews Commentary
15:49 - Eternal Security
20:34 - Intermission
21:32 - Free will and Consistency
25:51 - Free will and Eternity
28:22 - Warning Texts
31:49 - Warning Texts - in Hebrews
35:45 - Warnings - To Whom?
36:31 - Refuting the Arminian View
42:55 - Refuting the Calvinistic View
47:03 - Importance of Context
48:32 - Hiatus
49:11 - Continuation - To Whom?
54:30 - Fallen Away - Discussion
56:35 - Fallen Away - Answer
1:00:50 - Scriptural Comparisons
1:01:58 - Strengthening the Arguments
1:08:12 - Continuing and Tying Up
1:12:15 - Summary - Existing Views
1:14:40 - On Impossible to Repent
1:15:53 - Good Father Analogies
1:16:38 - Challenging the Arminian
1:23:19 - Continuing on Hebrews 6
1:27:29 - Not a Fake Warning!
1:32:15 - Challenging the Calvinistic
1:34:41 - To Fearing Listeners
1:41:02 - Concluding Remarks

This comment is placed under the CC0, "no rights reserved", licence. Reuse it, adapt it freely!

[dr.byronloyd]

Love the video. What sealed the understanding for me is understanding spirit, soul, and body. My spirit was redeemed, born again, made a new creation at the new birth (John 3:6). My soul (mind, will, emotions) is under renewal and change, being renewed in my mind with the word of God, submitting my will to His will, and bringing my emotions and feelings in line with the Word and I walk in the Spirit and do not fulfill the flesh. My body will be glorified at His return. So I may struggle and miss it in my soul but that does not affect my redeemed spirit that is sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise.

[ronedwards]

This is a wonderful explanation. So many are worried they are beyond God’s grace.

[jeffreybomba]

Hebrews
I once held/taught Conditional Security and have never agreed with Calvinism, and yet without scholarly influence came to the conclusion that the warnings are to those who were never saved. The Mosaic Hebrews are described as having KNOWLEDGE that is not united with FAITH. Paul makes the case through Romans that salvation HAS ALWAYS hinges on faith. He also made the case that the covenants of Circumcision and The Law did not grant salvation, but access to the truth and the honor of baring the Messiah. He relates it to baptism as a ritual that can be done with no effect.

One of the primary drivers used to skip past these details is what I call Brethren Theology, which is the idea that since the epistles are almost all addressed to believers, that the writer either had divine knowledge that their original audience was 100% saved, they are simply ignoring those who profess faith and are not saved, or the a mere profession guarantees salvation.

How could the NT writes make any such distinction is Jesus told the APOSTLES not to rip up the tares because they might mess it up? Why would Paul go to great lengths in Romans 2 to tell us that we do not have the authority to condemn? How could those he ordained become enemies of the gospel? How could John not know people were never of us until they depart? Jesus said, “do not say in your heart who will ascend and descend.”

The only option the APOSTLES were given was to accept someone’s profession until they proved to be a danger to the body (Paul boots the young man sleeping with his step mother) or they walked away. I believe the reason why the surrounding and not the soils/heart of the 3rd seed is not described because WE cannot know for sure. The word unfruitful used there and in 1Peter 1 can mean sickly or unable or dead. What does Jesus tell THE WORKER to do for a sickly plant? Fertilize and water it, but let the owner of the field decide when to rip it out. Such a plant may wither and walk away revealing an unchanged heart of stone that was NEVER of us. It may continue to con us and even display what we think is fruit, but when they approach Jesus in heaven and even list the “gifts of the spirit (of Satan really)” they have done, they are told I NEVER knew you, not I KNOW YOU NO LONGER.

Your words and rituals do not save you, nor to they begin a process of salvation that you may or may not finish. God judges the heart knowing it better than you, His judgements cannot fail, and He knows the beginning from the end and does not give out temporary eternal life.

[NathanaelDavidEX]

Falling away is not a matter of being unborn but of death. The same way one born of water must continue to drink water, so those born of the Spirit must continue to abide in the Spirit lest they die and become like a withering tree .

[inTruthbyGrace]

Dr. David Allen is so helpful! I listened to this several times and will probably return to it again. Great stuff laid out here w Dr. Flowers and Allen. I hope you will have more conversations in the future.... thanks!

[a.k.]

For me, Hebrews 10:26 - 33 are crystal clear. Consider these first 3 verses from that selection: "For if we deliberately sin after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire about to consume the adversaries. If anyone disregards Moses’ law, he dies without mercy, based on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment do you think one will deserve who has trampled on the Son of God, regarded as profane the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and insulted the Spirit of grace?" (Heb 10:26-29, HCSB) This seems incredibly clear to me that a person who was sanctified by the blood of Christ can apostasize.

[beowulf.reborn]

"Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God." ~ Romans 8:12-14

This is written to the "brethren" who have the "Spirit of God", and yet they are told that if they "live according to the flesh" they "will die".

How can this be any clearer? See also Galatians where Paul speaks of the works of the Flesh vs the Spirit.

When we are born again, we receive the Spirit of God, we are regenerated, born again, and now by the grace of God we walk by faith in the Spirit and put to death the deeds of the flesh, but if we willfully turn back to sin (for fear of persecution, or because of hardships, or because of the deceitfulness of riches, etc.) then we will fall from grace, and make shipwreck of our faith.

[dakotad.]

Hebrews 6 is actually a prooftext FOR ETERNAL SECURITY ironically LOL. It is so misunderstood.

The writer of Hebrews was writing to Jews who still had a law based mentality rather than of faith and grace. This verse is basically telling them that they are no longer under the old testament law system in which when someone sinned and fell away they had to sacrifice animals to God as repentance, however now that Jesus is the perfect sacrifice, this is no longer needed, and trying to do anything similar would be like recrucifying Jesus and putting him to an open shame.

Hopefully I explained it well enough to make sense.

[Steve]

if this isn't the best study tool on YouTube, I would love to know what is, what a great Brother this Man is !
I praise the LORD JESUS CHRIST, I've been praying for certain answers, and boom !
Here they are !
I dont thank the Lord enough for all the miracles he does in my life !
LORD JESUS CHRIST you really are an awesome GOD .
THANKYOU lord for listening to such a wretch as me, when I pray .
Keep me on that straight and narrow path LORD JESUS CHRIST, pick me up when I stumble!
I pray for all my brothers and Sisters out there, who need prayer for whatever reason, may the LORD JESUS CHRIST be with you always, in every chalenge that you face ..
GOD bless and keep you all .
AMEN ..

[SabastianDuke]

“I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:1-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

[jowieacetre]

Dr. Allen truly live what he says, "Exegesis first before doing theology".

[jordanmcpherson]

I used to have to ask this question, too. There are millions of YT videos answering this and people get a lot of comfort. But the fact that there are so many YT channels patching this over is because people aren't "feeling" assurance. For me, it was because I was still living sexually immoral. I since have repented, and the assurance was found. Not that I am perfect. But the Spirit has caused me to train my senses where I see the itch to sin voluntarily coming at me from afar. We will have no peace in grace if we insult it with our sin in the face of grace. I am ashamed I treated grace so cheaply. No ear has heard, no eye has seen, nor has it entered into man's hearts the things that we will see when we see God. Repent!

[timothyhodges]

What is a true indicator of apostosy? Lack of church attendance? No church participation? No fruits? If a person "BELIEVES Jesus Christ is the Son of God, he has the witness of God in him." 1John 5:10.
If a man can lose his salvation? "... there is no more sacrifice for sin, but a fearful expectation of judgment and raging fire that consume the adversaries..." Hebrews 10:27, 28, as was mentioned by Dr Allen in this broadcast. So it appears nobody can get re-saved if he loses his salvation.

[andrewdalton]

Thanks for this thoughtful discussion! I sincerely love and respect these gentlemen and the good work they do. I concur with Dr. Allen’s interpretation of the participle παραπεσόντας in Hebrews 6:4, namely, that the “fallen away” are truly believing brothers who have fallen into serious sin and have not repented.

Of course, Scripture distinguishes lesser sins from “sin that leads to death, ” often called “mortal sin” because it has supernaturally mortal effects (1 John 5:16-17). In my view, these immature Christians, who have been truly regenerated, are currently “lost” and “dead” (cf. Luke 15:32). That is, they have fallen into a state that makes them liable to eternal condemnation, unless they repent.

Unfortunately, Dr. Allen’s never demonstrates the key point, namely, that regenerated Christians can never forfeit totally or finally the state of grace or—to phrase it positively—that regenerated Christians necessarily attain final salvation, i.e., the glorification of heaven.

In fact, he counters his own conclusion by showing that natural birth and supernatural birth are analogous. To be sure, regeneration is indeed a work of God by which the old man receives resurrection-life, the slave becomes a son, and the unconsecrated building becomes a holy temple. This watershed cannot be undone. Once a son, always a son! Once a temple, always a temple! Amen! But then Dr. Allen leaps to the conclusion that regenerated Christians are guaranteed to attain final salvation. That’s quite a non sequitur, as his own analogy bears witness.

For newborn babies who receive natural life, though they cannot reenter the womb, can forfeit natural life. Analogously, reborn Christians who receive supernatural life, though they cannot undo this reception, can forfeit supernatural life. Similarly, a man rescued from the teeth of the crocodile, though he cannot undo this rescue, can freely jump back into crocodile-infested waters. Jesus says explicitly that a son can squander his inheritance, thereby becoming “lost” and “dead” (cf. Luke 15:32).

So, while “once saved, always saved” is problematic, a better alternative would be “once made a son, always a son.” A son might forfeit his birthright, blessing, or inheritance, and several OT figures shed light on this recurring motif: Cain and Abel, Isaac and Ishmael, Jacob and Esau, Naboth and Ahab. Israel, God’s firstborn son, inherits the promised land, but many suffer exile. Several Gospel passages build on this background: the prodigal (younger) son squanders his inheritance (Luke 15:11-32); the wicked tenants murder the heir to seize the son’s inheritance (Matt 21:33-46); the rich young man asks what he must do to inherit eternal life/the kingdom of heaven (Matt 19:16-30). According to Paul, Christians are “coheirs with Christ” because the resurrection-life that Christ inherits is our inheritance too, “provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him” (Rom 8:17). In sum, a theological thread which runs through Scripture is that the possession of one’s eternal inheritance is ultimately contingent upon one’s behavior.

Scripture attests in many ways that one can forfeit good standing: sons of the kingdom can be ousted into the darkness of damnation, consecrated temples can be desecrated and destroyed, brothers can be excommunicated, God’s sheep can get lost, sailing ships can get shipwrecked, the kingdom can be taken away from fruitless sons, fruitless branches can be cut off, etc. Of course, they can be forgiven too if they repent. Yet, not a single verse of Scripture teaches that regenerated Christians can never forfeit totally or finally the state of grace, or that they necessarily attain final salvation.

Dr. Allen incorrectly supposes that John 6:39 and 10:28 ground the dogma. But the first citation only affirms that Jesus loses none of his own, not that none of his own ever gets lost. The second citation only affirms that no one snatches Jesus’s sheep out of his hand, not that none of his sheep ever strays of its own accord. Rom 8:29-30 was also cited, but this verse only says that justified Christians have been glorified, not that their future glorification cannot be interrupted. The dogma of “once (initially) saved, always (finally) saved” is being presupposed and carried into Scripture, not being derived therefrom.

Dr. Allen did such a nice job pointing out that salvation, Scripturally speaking, breaks down into three moments: we have been saved, we are being saved, and we will be saved. But then he gratuitously reserves “salvation” to the first moment, “sanctification” to the ongoing process, and “glorification” to the final goal. Why not follow the text and recognize that all three moments are “salvation”?

An important point went unmentioned in this excellent conversation. When discussing “the sin of a believer, ” a linguistic clarification is necessary. Can a believer sin? It is much like asking if a solid can be liquid, or if a virgin can have sexual relations. A solid QUA SOLID is not and cannot be a liquid. But a solid can obviously melt, thus becoming a liquid and ceasing to be a solid. Likewise, a virgin QUA VIRGIN does not and cannot have sexual relations, but a virgin can obviously abandon her virginity by having sexual relations. In the same way, a believer QUA BELIEVER cannot sin. For Scripture presents sin and faith as mutually exclusive categories. But a believer can make a shipwreck of his faith and fall into sin (1 Tim 1:19).

Put simply, if one believes, one has eternal life (cf. John 5:24). The corollary is true too: if one does not believe, one does not have eternal life. It follows that, believers who commit grave sin, thereby expressing unbelief, forfeit eternal life. Some might object, saying, but it is nonsensical to say that one who has eternal life forfeits it, for then such life is not "eternal." In response, one must examine the Greek expression, "eternal life" (ἡ αἰώνιος ζωὴ), which is not exactly equivalent to "everlasting life." The Greek word for “eternal” is derived from the word for “age.” Believers presently participate in "the life of the age to come.” Of course, there is nothing lacking in divine, supernatural life, for it is the very life of God. But since our creaturely share in such Life is contingent upon belief, and since belief is something we can abandon, such Life is something that we can forfeit. To put it somewhat crudely, Christ-life is like a never-dying battery which believers attain as a gift through faith. Though the battery itself can never die, creatures can let go of it. There is a big difference between "having eternal life" and "eternally having eternal life."

Finally, I’d like to address the charge that those who profess the possibility of forfeiting and regaining the state of grace are inconsistent with Hebrew 6:4-6. It is said that, in calling fallen-away sinners to repentance, we deny that “it is impossible … to restore them again to repentance.” Yet, it is untrue that we deny this. One who has fallen into sin must repent for oneself. We can exhort the sinner to do so, since this is the only means of reconciliation, but we cannot restore them to repentance ourselves.

To this point, Mary Healy’s commentary is helpful: “Hebrews, however, is more likely referring to a person who persists in sin and out of hardness of heart rejects the very ground of repentance, God’s offer of salvation in Christ (see 2:3). Perhaps the point is that there is nothing one can do for people who are in such a condition. As long as they maintain their present attitude, they are beyond the reach of any pastoral efforts. Although there is the danger that they will not come to repentance, and they are ground that “will soon be cursed” (v. 8), it is not impossible that they will turn back. But unless and until they decide to do so, there is no way to reach them.”

[sydney.g.sloangammagee]

Leighton, I know this is from 5 years ago, but . . . I really like these videos with Dr. David Allen!!!

He has a way of teaching the clearly spells things out - relying upon "Scripture supports Scripture!"
You just can't outdo the brilliance of God!!!

I've often questioned the eternal salvation of the generation that wandered over the wilderness.
WE are all like that wandering generation - pushing back against God for our spiritual maturity . . . afraid that if we "give all to God" that He may send us into an extreme situation to evangelize or something way beyond our abilities to become a martyr - we become "comfortable" with the blessings we have received & just want to stay put.
Incredible enlightenment. THANK YOU!!!

Basically, He said early on, "you can't be unborn" but you can stagnate.

I'm trying to watch all your previous videos with him. God bless this Ministry!!!

[watchmanbob]

Very helpful and encouraging commentary for those of us who believe but have been on a guilt trip and afraid of going to Hell because of not knowing there is a Scriptural alternative to both the extreme Armenian and extreme Calvinist views. I thank God for your ministry--both of you.

[garethlowe]

I normally enjoy these videos but not this one. If salvation is compared to marriage, Calvinists believe in arranged marriage (no free will); Provisionists seem to believe in fixed marriages (free will until married but not after), and Arminians free marriages (free will before and after the wedding). And where there is free will in marriage then adultery and desertion are possible. This is true naturally and spiritually (Jer 3:1, 8, 20).

I believe Dr. Allen is making a few category errors here. The first is claiming that Arminians who believe in apostasy believe that once born-again you can be unborn. Of course they don't believe that! What they believe is that once born again you can spiritually die through apostasy. So the analogy is not born then un-born; but born then die. Which is a very logical thought. You can be born in the natural and die in the natural and you be born in the spirit and die in the spirit.

The second category error is comparing general statements of intent with specific warnings as though you can balance them out. When you buy a product the advertising makes certain promises but that doesn't mean terms and conditions don't apply. When a pastor speaks at a wedding and waxes lyrical about blood covenant and its permanence, it doesn't mean he doesn't believe if one commits adultery it could end the covenant. Likewise, when the Bible makes all kinds of promises they are true, but it doesn't annul the specific T&C's or warnings. That's why we are not universalists. There are some scriptures on God's intent that are universal (He wants to save everyone) but there is a condition (repentance and faith). So God wants all believers to go to heaven but there are certain conditions where that won't happen. And there are gazillions of verses warning about apostasy. A few verses to consider: Heb 10:26-31; Heb 12:25; 1 Cor 5:5; 2 Tim 2:11-13; 2 Pet 2:20-22; Jude 1:11; Luke 22:3-4; I Jn 5:16-17; Matt 7:19-23; Matt 10:32-33; Mark 3:28-30.

A third category error is comparing the generation who wondered the wilderness to apostates. And then claiming Hebrews 6 is referring to these people. Hebrews 6 is as he rightly states addressing believers (Jewish Christians) but Hebrews is warning not just against backsliding but real apostasy. We know it is apostasy and not just backsliding by words such as:

o “It is impossible for those…to be brought back to repentance.” 6:4, 6
o “They are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.” 6:6
o “But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.” 6:8
o “If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.” 10:26-27
o “How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?” 10:29
o “It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.” 10:31

Good luck if you think that is referring to just backsliding! No clearly it is apostasy.

But it is only mature believers who can commit apostasy and is rare: A person can only lose their salvation if they have first:

1. “Once been enlightened” – been convicted of their sin and understood the gospel.
2. “Tasted the heavenly gift” – received the gift of salvation and were born-again.
3. “Shared in the Holy Spirit” – baptised in the Holy Spirit.
4. “The goodness of the word of God” – mature in their understanding of the Bible – graduated from milk to meat.
5. “Tasted…the powers of the coming age” – operate in the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

Apostasy is not just leaving the church – it is a very mature believer making a considered, deliberate, conscious decision to choose gross sin over righteousness and Satan over Jesus. It is deliberately abandoning, betraying, and renouncing Jesus. And that is why it is a sin unto death and there is no way back (I Jn 5:16-17).

1Corinthians 3 actually has 3 categories of people, not just 2, all who were involved with the Church:

1. The rewarded – “If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward.” 3:14
2. The unrewarded – “If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved – even though only as one escaping through the flames.” 3:15
3. The apostate – “If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy that person; for God’s temple is sacred, and you together are that temple.” 3:17

“Perseverance of the saints” is a form of hyper-grace and the last vestiges of Calvinism. Please dismiss it!

[SabastianDuke]

I think this is one point that I do have to disagree with You on.

How can you affirm free will and at the same time believe that someone cannot walk away? Especially when you consider that there are multiple verses that claim that it is possible? Paul even wrote about the great falling away, stating that people would depart from the faith.

[HKFromAbove]

The explanation of Heb 6 makes it so clear.
Thanks.
Understanding 'Fallen away' is key.
There does come a time if we aren't going on to maturity that God will not help us go on to maturity.
Just like Moses not being allowed into the promised land didn't mean he wasn't saved just that he didn't receive the promises here in earth.
Praise God.