Mindfulness explained: It's not the same as meditation | John Vervaeke and Lex Fridman

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GUEST BIO:
John Vervaeke is a psychologist and cognitive scientist at University of Toronto.

PODCAST INFO:

SOCIAL:

[martinstuvland]

To anyone reading this. From someone who's struggled with mental health issues for most of my life, but recently started to gain clarity. I'm contributing that in large part to the teachings of Eckhart Tolle in the book The Power of Now. It covers, very fundamentally, how to gain presence of mind and let go of past trauma which essentially is what mostly is dictating ones perception of yourself, surroundings, past, present and future. Highly recommend if anyone feels called.

[zbighugh]

As a Zen practitioner for many years and after years of study and trying out all sorts of mental and intuitive gymnastics, I chanced to experience that state where there is no longer separation between what's inside the body and what's out "there" -- there's only everything -- no separation. It's like, before realization, the world is a giant blackboard with chalk-mark outlines separating your body, the houses, the buildings, the sun, the cars, the clouds, the road, the world, etc. Then realization is erasing the chalk-mark outlines and all that's left is the giant blackboard and everything merges. So mindfulness is realizing there is no separation between you and the world, there is only the world of which you are a part of. There is no "me" inside you and there is no "out there" outside of you. So mindfulness is living in this state. We are born in this state, but, to learn to live in the world, we are taught separation, analysis, intellectualizing -- all necessary to survive in society. Very young kids live in that state up to a certain age when the layers cover it up. That's why sometimes, looking at babies and toddlers, we recognize that state and we're just amazed. We just have to learn to relieve these learned layers to be able to get to this underlying state. How? Just be present, look around you, listen, feel, taste, and whenever you feel you're inside your body and you're just perceiving things outside of it, then that's not the state. So keep figuring out how you get to that state. And maybe one morning (like what happened to me) you'll just wake up, open your eyes, and there it is. But it's always deep inside of us.

[CrowMagnum]

Developing curiosity into the incompleteness of your models, cultivating non-judgmental, awareness as you investigate their habits and bias, breaking down the models and learning detachment by realizing they are not static and do not define you, shifting perspectives to identify with the process of change and growth, seeing the process of change and growth in others and being moved by compassion to act accordingly.

[Pimpjit]

Thank you! How lucky we are to have such brilliant people explain things so simply. In all honesty I struggled with this. I felt like I had gained a new power by observing myself. But I could reconcile that with meditation and dissolving the self. I always felt that both are necessary. Glad to hear I wasn't too far off the mark.

[Dmitrioligy]

Typical Youtube gold Lex. It's so eye-opening to see everyone you bring into your podcasts.
The unified conciousness expands as we learn from the experts and listen in on your introspective questions you so often love to ask. Keep going at and inspiring others.
Also the throughput of your podcasts launching so often? Damn.

[lostinbravado]

It people don't understand the basic point of reprogramming the mind, then they won't understand the entire view John is presenting here. Many and perhaps even most people still believe that their mind is some sort of mystical magical thing which they cannot hope to understand. Mindfulness is about recognizing that your brain can be understood and indeed reprogrammed.

[catythatzallnow]

Mindfulness ought to be used in all action- to the best of every persons ability in spirit body and mind -

[petrub]

What a beautiful artwork on the ‘cover’!

[hynjus]

I'd argue that proper "frame observing" naturally leads to what he calls contemplation because if you're avoiding the implementation of an observation into insight, that in itself is a "scratch on the glass"

[Phaedrusuk]

More than 40 years ago I practiced insight meditation. This profoundly changed my preception of how I viewed how I view the world, the metaphor of the glasses is very good. My big explosion from there was reading D T Suzuki's "The Zen Doctrine of No Mind", which was so far above my understanding I read it twice, starting the first page after finishing the last, not understanding but in a profound way developing better vision. And here I am still not knowing what I didn't know. Dispassionate observation: detachment is where it lost me, or I lost it or maybe not. Interesting, I will view the full interview

[deltablaze]

These conversations you have really are a service.

[mohamedelrayan]

That's actually a brilliant analogy

[jessemccall]

mindfulness involves being in the present...fully & having awareness of self & others. Being genuinely present no wandering thoughts trailing around what ever or whomever 1 is engaged.

[arlieferguson]

Great distinction. One thing I would like to add from my own experience is that, as the Zen tradition emphasizes, there are different experiences of the frame. The One that is the most difficult to grasp is the experience of there being no frame at all step back from, but simply emptiness. That is kind of considered to be a goal of Zen meditation. In that sense stepping back isn’t contemplating your own perception but abstracting from any perception at all. It makes sense if you’ve experienced it internally, but leads you into all sorts of strange places once you try to describe it. Here the emphasis is kind of placed on the pragmatic value of the practice, but at its highest level, the goal of Zen might be to actually transcend the immediate practical value of meditation and discover a mindset that allows you to open the door to a higher, more integrated way of living and experiencing the world. Personally, I think that the practical benefits take care of themselves and it’s probably best not to look for them in the meditation itself, but simply allow them to flow over time. It’s kind of like you have to trust the practice first without looking for the benefits right away.

[DavidKolbSantosh]

According to the Patanjali Yoga Sutras, which is considered the foremost treatise on meditation in Hinduism, meditation is unbroken flow of concentration towards one object in consciousness - 3:2 Tatra pratyayaikatānatā dhyānam tatra=there (in concentration) pratyaya=cognition ekatanata=flowing to one object only dhyana=meditation

[HigherPlanes]

If the frame is holding the lens, what's holding the frame?

[em-dyhn]

Lex, meditation is not an altered state of consciousness like taking psychedelics. We meditate to allow and observe the natural state to unfold. We do not chase experiences. It is a process of deconditioning and reconditioning. The Tibetan word for meditation is "Gom" meaning, "to become familiar" or "getting used to". It is a process of experiencing in the natural condition or the "nondual state".

[williamcallahan]

Just sit. As Garab Dorje said: "Rest in awareness as awareness." That's it.

[PriusTurbo]

This concept seems to be too complex for a lot of commenters. Meditation may just cause one to turn off thoughts and observe, but that is only the half of it. Without contemplation and creating an intention of what to do with this information gained in the present and future, it's somewhat of a waste of time. I've felt this since I started using guided meditations. Always left with a feeling of "ok that was fun, now what" immediately after. It has a way of making you feel like you're doing something but for many people I don't think it's necessarily moving them forward/improving their lives. Just my personal opinion from someone who has been meditating often for about three years now.

[scooble]

I've never been too hung up on labels, but instead seek to shift both internal and external perspectives, evaluate what I see and apply the insights I've experienced.
I have no idea wether it's meditation, mindfulness, both or neither.