The Papacy in the 3rd to 7th Centuries: Protestant Critique

Is the vision of papal supremacy in Vatican 1 consistent with the beliefs and practices of the early church? Here I list 5 episodes from 3rd to the 7th century that challenge contemporary Roman Catholic claims about the papacy.

Truth Unites is a mixture of apologetics and theology, with an irenic focus.

Gavin Ortlund (PhD, Fuller Theological Seminary) serves as senior pastor of First Baptist Church of Ojai.

My books:

[wilwelch]

You’ve got to write a book about all this. Your content is so awesome and well researched. I always learn so much from watching your videos.

[Zonie-xvep]

I can officially say you've convinced me not to join the Catholic church. I've been giving a serious look at Catholicism over the last several months. Their claim to be the continuation of the church fathers was intriguing and the fact that many protestants don't know church history well or reference it much at all seem to prove their case, but the huge focus on Mary was something I just couldn't bring myself to embrace, especially since these are newer-ish doctrines in the Catholic church and you have to believe them if you are to join. In my mind, it really came down to the papacy, if the pope is really infallible and entrusted with the power to make these doctrines official by Christ or not. I'm confident now that the papacy in its current form in Catholicism is not true, and not historic, it is something that developed much later. I love the church father quotes you mention about "apostolic succession" meaning nothing if the doctrine is in error, I think that is something that the current Catholic church doesn't grasp and that also gave the reformers divine authority to do what they did. I'm still on a search for a more historic/sacramental church, so I'll probably look the Missouri Synod Lutheran Church now. I really appreciate that you've taken the time to make these videos from protestant perspective. God bless!

[he]

I find it to be a strange claim when Roman Catholics say that the pope cannot be led into error. In the Bible, Peter is rebuked by Paul regarding the gentile christians. I find it strange that Roman catholics think that they were given something that was not even given to Peter.

[EricBryant]

Btw Dr. Ortlund, I am an Orthodox catechumen but your channel has helped me immensely by filling in some of the gaps in understanding. Your humility is a blessing. You strike a good balance between thoroughness, solid scholarship, and pastoral care. I find with other scholars/apologeticists that they either charicature other traditions, or they go sooo deep into rigorous minutiae that I get lost and can't even follow them. Thank you so much for your work, and may God bless you richly!

[colinbrown]

Dr, Ortlund,
I love your content so much! I am a Protestant (Reformed Baptist like yourself) with strong interest in church history. It is helpful to watch you think through these things from a Protestant perspective. The temptation is to think that Rome has the better claim to historical grounding because they make Tradition a coequal mode of revelation. It’s helpful to get a balanced Protestant view on church history to counter that line of thinking!

[timtaft]

I’m looking forward to this! I happen to be a Protestant leaning-Catholic here, so if there’s any strong reason why I shouldn’t be Catholic I want to hear it! I appreciate your content so much Dr. Ortlund

[dennischanay]

I'm late life RCC convert but I learn so much from Gavin. He's really incredible. God bless him.

[GospelSimplicity]

Great video! Grateful for the work you're doing. Looking forward to all that is to come!

[thatoneguysface]

Your excellent historical mind has clearly led to a humble approach. I love all your videos! From a fellow Protestant!

[fredericthieltges]

Wow Gavin! Thank you so much. It was you who introduced me to church history. Now I am so eager to learn and study from the churchfathers. As I am doing so I do not at all cease to be Protestant(as Newman argues) but I am growing even more confident that the childlike beliefs I had reading my bible are true and confirmed by fathers. I feel like god is really using you to shed light on churchhistory for Protestants like me who felt like the only thing which is needed is the bible. Still love my bible and filtering everything through it but wow I was missing out on the riches of our fathers!

[SaltyApologist]

I’m convinced that God has raised up Gavin, with his temperament, to deconstruct the errors and false claims of Rome and the EO. It is so needed in a current environment where Rome is reinventing history and making outlandish claims that are devoid of fact

[christianperspective]

Did Peter really die at Rome? Paul never mentions Peter as being with him in prison. Paul never disguises his presence in Rome. Peter would be risking himself by calling Rome Babylon more than if he called Rome Rome. During the first ecumenical council recorded in the book of Acts, Peter agreed to preach 'to the Jews' while Paul was sent 'to the gentiles'. It makes sense to me that Peter was actually in Babylon, a large Jewish community rivaling Jerusalem. Peter indeed went 'to the Jews" while Paul went 'to the gentiles'.

[janiejackson]

Hi, Gavin! Appreciate the video. Your content always encourages me to look deeper into my faith and so more research (as a Catholic). Grateful for your channel!

[rexlion]

Gavin said, "Can you imagine" an episode like the Zosimus/Celestine thing playing out today? Well, it did, and in our own time! Paul VI found himself unable to rein in the Jesuits in the 1970s. His successor, John Paul I had been in office but a few days when Jesuit "General" Arrupe's assistant, Vincent O'Keefe, told a Dutch newspaper in an interview that the new Pope should reconsider the Church's bans on abortion, homosexuality, and priesthood for women; John Paul I was incensed and wrote a scathing speech of warning to the Jesuits, but he died in bed before he could deliver it. John Paul II was set to push for Arrupe's resignation when he was struck by a would-be assasin's bullets, causing him to lose 6 months in recovery. Fortunately, John Paul II won that round when Arrupe had a stroke a few months later.

Then, during John Paul II's time as Pope, the prelates in Central America led by the Jesuits openly flaunted his authority and disobeyed his orders to abandon their Liberation Theology and their socio-political activism with the Sandinistas. To combat this, John Paul II flew to Nicaragua and arranged to deliver a hard-hitting sermon during Mass there on March 4, 1983. Instead, the local prelates got the Mass attendees to shout John Paul II down. Malachi Martin writes of it in his book, "The Jesuits": "The microphone that had been set up for him could not overcome the well-rehearsed and beautifully timed cacaphony that now rose from the crowds, and ear-splitting litany of rhythmic, revolutionary slogans...The slogans continued through the entire Sacrifice of the Mass, drowning even its most sacred moment, the Consecration, in cries of 'Power to the People!' and 'It is possible to be Marxist and Christian!' and 'Speak to us about the injustice of capitalism!'" (p.119-120). The Marxist clergy deliberately humiliated the holy father to show him 'who is boss.'

Honestly, the almost universal disrespect of Francis by the RC world is not as precedential as one might have guessed.

[PaulOSullivan]

I’m a cradle Catholic who has been doing a deep dive into this subject. Thank you so much for this, Gavin. I have to say, your reasoning sounds solid. Your argument sounds much like many Orthodox arguments regarding Rome.

[johnsayre]

Dr. Ortlund, I'm guessing you've read Denny's "Papalism", or at least excerpts of it? I'm working through it right now. Eye-opening. The thought that keeps coming into my head is that Rome does a superb job of framing narratives. "When you read the words of Matthew 16, equate that with the claims of Vatican 1". That claim seems less and less tenable the more I study. God bless you.

[PETERJOHN]

Don't apologize for the minutia of Church history and Patristric texts, it's fascinating. I just wish there was a 10 hour movie reel on Church history covering the first 12 centuries.

[hernani_neto]

Thank you for this video! It is being too useful for me here in Angola, it's always good to learn more about church history and to know that it do not lead us to Roman Church. - Thanks you, from a presbyterian brother.

[Adam-ueig]

I wonder if Catholics on here even listened to Gavin because they rarely if at all engage the specific content in the video. Instead, they often double down and churn out the same old talking points to try and support Rome.

[MortenBendiksen]

For me, the straight forward reading suggest that the keys are faith in Jesus, the rock is knowing he is the Messiah, and what we bind is what we ourselves retain, and what we loose, we our selves loose. If we hold things like grudges, we retain it, if we forgive it, mend the wounds, we loose it. It simply describing how the new heavenly scheme of things will be, which is the foundation of our psyche ever since.
Faith is how one enters the kingdom, right now, not some time later on, although our perception of it shall certainly only grow. Being in the kingdom consists of experiencing joy over smiling children, warm relationships between all neighbours, etc, as well as sadness and mourning oner loss of such, and always without controlling the situation, but accepting what comes, praying for God's will, the loving unity of all. It's the actual experience that is the kingdom, and it can only be tasted by trust, i.e. faith.