Watch Out for These Red Flags in Used CNC Machines! | Machine Shop Talk Ep. 92

If you’re thinking of starting a machine shop, new equipment may be too far out of your budget to be feasible. Used machinery is an excellent way to get into the game or build your capacity – but what are some things you should watch out for when browsing the pre-owned market?

On this episode of Practical Machinist’s MACHINE SHOP TALK, Ian Sandusky from Lakewood Machine is back to help a poster on the Practical Machinist forums who came on with exactly this situation on their hands.

While the used machine market can seem perilous at times, there are certainly use-case scenarios where it makes sense to bring in used CNC machinery. Whether you’re looking to increase production, add capabilities, or break into the CNC market – there’s usually a good option in the pre-owned world to help you out.

What are YOUR red flags to watch out for when it comes to buying used CNC machinery? Let us know in the comments below!

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[phone]

#machineshop #metalworking #machining

[joels]

I'm probably going to get torn to pieces by saying this, but read the paint. Paint on the inside of the machining area is a good indicator of how many chips that machine has made, and how hard those chips were coming off of the workpiece. Paint on the door contact surfaces on mills and lathes, and on lathes just under the door where operator's pants rub the paint when they're changing parts. These are all good indicators of how hard that machine has been run. I was looking at a mill a while ago with reasonable hours and the inside looked like it was sandblasted. The machine I ended up buying was a 2000 Hardinge VMC600 and the factory paint inside the machine is completely intact. That Hardinge has been a rockstar for nearly two years now with 19200 baud drip feed.

[mesikamoto]

I was looking for a cnc lathe to make parts for my products. I found a clapped out 30 year old okuma CNC lathe that has sat for 10 years. I took the risk and bought it for 3k. It took few months to sort it out and fix some problems. Been making good parts for a year now, without any issues. Machine is slow for todays standard, but im in no hurry. Having this capacity in my shop has boosted product development speed. I can design new parts in the morning, cut them out after lunch and try them in the evening. If you are designing and making your own products, having this kind of capacity has massive advantages.

[Zeusspupp]

What to watch out for? 1, Did it have synthetic coolant in it? Cause if it did, the paint will be gone, look for rusty ways and way covers. If its covered in sticky brown goo, run...2, Control type, any thing Siemens is gonna empty your wallet. They own Acramatic, so be very careful with a Cinci or any machine with a pc2100. Their drives suck..., Next Yasnac, good control, same as Fanuc as far as usability, issue, Yaskawa hasnt made a control since 2002, they are outta the business. All the older techs have retired, you are on your own. 3, ask yourself what you really need. Speed is an illusion for short run work, consider the advantages to having a lathe and mill, more flexable then a mill turn lathe. 4, do not underestimate older well kept equipment. Ill take a 20 yr Mori over a haas anyday. Older equipment with modern tooling is eye opening. I had an old Brown & Sharpe vmc, old slow... that machine was incredibly productive with modern tools. 5, learn to fix your own equipment. There are deals, some free if you have the skills. All machinery breaks, matter of how and when. That shiney Haas is gonna break also, about after the last payment...kinda like that new truck you bought. Another point to keep in mind, as you look at newer equipment, everything is proprietary. Drive signals are digital, the options parameters are watchdog locked. One of the things I loved about a Fadal, with the exception of the castings and control boards, every other part could be bought from Mcmaster Carr and Digikey.

[tanner]

Machines that are not able to be shown under power, ESPECIALLY machines that have been powered down for many months or years... I argue that they are worth their weight in scrap steel, or should be regarded as parts machines.
If you can't see the machine start up, move the axes, check backlash, run the spindle (and warm it up), clamp and unclamp a tool holder, to a tool change, you should assume you won't be running any jobs immediately before putting time and money into fixing it.
I think 20-30yr old machines can definitely be worth it, you just have to know exactly what you're getting.

[andrew_the_machinist]

Check backlash, listen to the spindle. Those are pretty much the two key points.

Last machine i bought was a 2004 VF3 two years ago for 35k. It's been one of my best CNCs.

[joshualegault]

The best machine for the price when first starting out is probably a haas tm2. It has 40 inches on x. I'd buy it new if I had to start a shop tomorrow and throw it in my garage because it can run on single phase. You get all the memory of a new machine with the probing and such that a modern machine has. If you can make the monthly payment on a machine this cheap then

[andrew_the_machinist]

Lol. I had my local used machine dealer say almost those exact words "if you don't like it or need it after a couple months, I'll buy it back"

Almost like renting a machine

[damientoomey]

I have done well with older Mazak machines and they are very capable for their age and hold good size but after closely looking at parts a friend has made on his new dmg monoblocks it was just unreal. I don’t think mine could even achieve what he was doing at 8m/min.

[mrortiz]

Throw indicators on the machine. You can mechanically identify any issue. Then look at the control if it can be serviced. Parts and availability. Its simple. Stick with the same brand in your shop. You can transfer parts over.

[spdtool]

If this guy needs a "hole drilling machine" - why not find a good used Bridgeport and do a 3-axis prototrak retrofit ? It will fit in his budget, uses tooling he already has, and will be fairly easy to run.

[markhorner]

my main machines are a 10" chuck Ecoca lathe and a Bridgeport vmc600, both 22-23 years old and great machines, the vmc a couple of drives have gone on it and luckily we had spares from a scraped machine, the lathe in the 17 years i have used it the coolant pump went, we have a 8 year old goodway lathe that has had £1000s spent on it prob about 30-35k the other one nothing at all, been a good machine, YCM mills we have 3, all bought at the same time all, all assembled wrong so our tool rep told us so all needed new ball screws an bearings, spindle bearings went in all 3, during the warranty we had a guy out for at least 1 of them every other week lol, they work ok now. As for 2nd hand i would go for a 2nd hand quality make machine, the old bridgeport i use, still loads of places that can fix it, all the spares still on the market, used fixed drives or new drives easy to get..

[pa]

If it is Japanese with a Fanuc 6 or later control, you can see it running and it has with it a FULL array of manuals and schematics - it is hard to go wrong.

[dootdoot]

Shin Nippon Koki, Anything Nissin. Built like a tank. All the old Okuma stuff was built to last with solid rigidity. The bones of these are worth retrofitting controls, spindles and servos too in the future with their solid box ways and castings, Capacity, etc.

[josephhaim]

Alot of good comments but one thing nobody ever mentions is the cycle start button, is it worn in the center or did someones nails dig in and remove the paint above it, this is a sign if alot of different setups (running blockwise)

Also are the programming buttons all worn out but the cycle start buttom is like new, also a sign it didnt run production. Stick to used Japanese machines and you will have less headaches.

[lehighleroy]

Let’s just say you get what you pay for.
You buy an old machine that’s what you get .
It’s very symbol if you’re already in the trade know if the machine is any good or not .
Let’s face it machines are designed to cut steel and hog
If that’s what it did most of its life
Who cares that’s what it’s meant to do
If you’re not good enough to tell if the machine is good or not, and maybe you should consider doing what you do

[weldmachine]

Red Flag..
Second Hand HAAS VMC that has not already had the Spindle replaced ??

The main thing to do when buying Anything second hand.
Look & Listen ??
IF it looks like crap, it's probably had a hard life. ( much the same as some people, LOL )
IF something doesn't sound right either walk away or pay a Tech to do a full report on the machine your interested to purchase.
Some brands will have a service history from the dealer it was purchased from.
In some cases the history will drop off either because they haven't spent any money on the machine.
OR.
They decided to use an indepent Tech for all their servicing.
The reality. IF it's second hand it will cost more than what you paid for it.
Don't take it to heart.
Machines are not unrepairable.
Of course, NO one wants to spend more money than can afford to.
But, Welcome to Reality 👍

[kap]

there a you tuber call the CNC Repairman he has lots of great hints and tutorial on CNC and he has a video on buying used machines his videos are worth a look

[jesselarson]

I stated with 25k mought a vf2 a rpc, a small air compressor, and a 7x12 bandsaw as well as a laptop. Started off small and made it work.

[tommays]

It’s boatload on NO LONGER AVAILABLE for example we had one that the battery holder failed on and it wiped out ALL the parameters

[hinz]

Not only depends on crashes and what material was cut, also what kind of machining.
Die making and small contouring wears down slideways and ballscrews much faster than long continuous cuts in one direction.
Hardened steel and small aluminum makes nasty chips that get into the ways, you can pretty much be sure to have seized ways on such CNCs after 30 years.
And such clowns that occasionally cut wood, fiberglas, pertinax... or use wood to test their CNC programs on CNC lathes with coolant, dust and coolant crap everywhere, especially behind the way covers that rusts there over time, usually the ways and not the stainless way covers :-/
Machines that were often used with flood coolant are a bad choice generally, that stuff gets everywhere, dries up and leaves nasty goo everywhere, that rusts the machine over time.
Not to mention oil displacement on slideways, i.e. seized ways over time.