Disagreements with Eastern Orthodoxy - Mastering Reformed Theology Chapter 3

[rami]

I’m sure this video will have nothing but positive comments and no people arguing at all

[redscarf]

As a Catholic I would say I have more in common with EO than protestants

[ryankeane]

As a Catholic, I would say I feel much closer to Eastern Orthodoxy than any other "denomination". They have valid apostolic succession, valid sacraments and a beautiful liturgy. I truly believe the Catholic church and Eastern Orthodox church are the two lungs of the Church.

[lukatrooper]

Redeemed zoomer makes video on orthodoxy.

Kyle has entered the chat

[screaminpain]

I am an Orthodox Christian, and it is more about the traditions than the beliefs for me. I have the belief in the Bible which almost always resonates with what which the Orthodox believe, and I really like how old and traditional the Orthodox churches and practices are.
Although we may disagree on some things (like Filioque), I would like to make something clear.
In Heaven there won't be Catholics, nor Protestants nor Orthodox, there will be people who Believe in Christ.
So we can have all of those debates for those secondary beliefs, but we should never forget the primary teaching which is: Christ has redeemed the world, died for our Sins and whosoever believes in Him will be saved.
I really enjoy your videos Redeemed Zoomer, and I'm looking forward to you and Kyle going at it again in the near future.

[RedFox-yvrl]

This is the moment when Calvinists can't get along with EO in their Minecraft mindset.

[Coteincdr]

Sorry, but as a Catholic I feel much closer to Orthodox.

[smithragsdale]

There’s a difference between the whole creed being “updated” at an ecumenical council and the pope adding something on his own

[Megafest]

I'll take a stab at this from the (lay, non-expert) ByzCath perspective:

Filioque: You won't get a consistent answer on this from the Orthodox side, but the reason WE do not recite the Filioque as part of the Creed during our Liturgies boils down to a grammatical detail. The Creed is authoritative in Greek and Latin co-equally, but the languages aren't identical. The verb "proceed" used in the Latin creed has basically the same meaning it has in English, but the verb used in the Greek creed is a more specific verb that refers to the way a stream springs forth from its source. (There's a different Greek verb that matches the Latin meaning of "procedere" much more closely, but that's not the one used in the Creed.) If we were to add "and the Son" to that, we would imply that one stream has two sources. That's not possible; that would make it two streams, which (however quickly) converge into one larger stream. Obviously this temporary duplication of the Holy Spirit is not what the West is saying with Filioque, but this is what we are denying by not saying it. This is also why Greek-speaking Roman Catholics omit Filioque during their Mass.

Regarding Energetic/Hypostatic procession, if you can catch the Orthodox in a non-polemical mood many of them will grant that this is an unresolved question still being debated in Orthodoxy to this day. I think the real heart of this issue is the East's objection to the West declaring questions like this one settled without the East's input and conciliar consent.

Reason: I don't agree that the East's more "mystical" bent has anything to do with Filioque. We all receive Christ in Holy Communion, so even if we grant that the extreme anti-Filioquist position breaks Christians' ability to gain knowledge of God through the Holy Spirit, Holy Communion would make that moot because we receive the Logos directly anyway. This whole question feels too close to breaking the Hypostatic Union, so let's leave it firmly in the hypothetical.

Our different emphases on reason vs experience are extremely old - going clear back to St Augustine and the Desert Fathers at least - were not a matter to schism over then, and are not now. Each brings something of value that the other can't explore to the same depth, even though the East has intellectuals like St John Chrysostom and St John Damascene and the West has mystics like St Francis and St Theresa of Avlia. This is wy St JP2 spoke of the "two lungs of the Church". We need each other.

Original Sin: This is an old polemic that doesn't accurately represent the Eastern view. St Augustine is considered a saint by the overwhelming majority of Easterners (including St Gregory Palamas). He's simply a less important one to us, in the same way that the Desert Fathers are less important to, but still venerated as saints in, the West. The "effects of sin" descriptor shouldn't be taken to imply crypto-Pelagianism; it's the "effects of" the sin of Adam. Also known as Original Sin. Salvation IS an unearned gift of God's grace, AND we must cooperate with that gift in order to be saved. When reflecting on how to "work out your salvation with fear and trembling", reflecting on the latter point more than on the former point (while not denying the former) is not Pelagianism, it's just the more grounded approach.

Simplicity: Even the Thomists agree that God's acts are uncreated; I'm surprised to learn Calvinists think Grace is a created thing. The East avoids speaking of God in positive attributes as a rule, preferring to say "what God is not" because our own concepts of power, justice, love, and eternity are flawed and finite and thus cannot actually capture the truth we're trying to convey with those words. That's not the same as denying that truth; it's a matter of being careful in expressing it. Essence and Energies will make a lot more sense if you mentally replace the word "Energies" with the word "Grace".

Theosis: Your point about "some part of us becoming uncreated" is exactly why the Energies/Essence distinction exists. We do not become uncreated, omnipotent, divinely simple, or otherwise gain any of the exclusively Divine attributes - this is what we mean by "we don't receive God's Essence." Again, when you hear "Divine Energies" think "Divine Grace". Though I'm still not sure what you mean by 'created grace': how can God's gift of himself be a created thing? It is an act, and thus has a beginning in time, but it is not created.

'There's no way to know if you're united enough to God' - Calvinism teaches the same thing though: you cannot know if you are elect. Also that's not why the Monastic vocation exists. "Martha, you are sore with many cares, but Mary has chosen the better part, and it will not be taken from her."

Sacrifice: The East does use the language of legal penalty, we just don't do it as often as the Reformed do. We spend more time meditating on the St Athanasius quote you put in this section as an accomplished fact, and striving to live in light of that fact; that's not the same as a denial that it happened or a claim that it wasn't absolutely necessary to satisfy Divine Justice.

Radical Theosis is the goal of Christian life. This is in the West too - St Theresa's 'Transforming Union' - Reformed theology's rejection of this point is the single biggest strike against it.

[Drkmatter]

Im Protestant, and despite the differences, i love my Orthodox brothers 👍.

[Ilovemarvelll]

The Filioque is NOT biblical.

As an Orthodox Christian, we believe that "the holy spirit proceeds from the father THROUGH the son". In FACT, THIS IS THE CATHOLIC OFFICIAL POSITION on the matter.

We just disagree with its inclusion in the Creed, not only because it is ambiguous (instead of the more clear: "from the father through the son"), but because the pope added it single-handedly, without consulting the other patriarchs or an ecumenical council, something he did not have the power to do so.

[thefirmamentalist]

When you choose a religion like it’s a sports team.

[gilgamesh]

Gotta side with the Orthodox on this one... the more we try to rationally arrive at God, his qualities, the dynamics of His nature, the more of a box we create for something ultimately incomprehensible. Kinda resent the fact that Catholicism neglects its own mystics. I sense more pride in intellectually trying to get it all sorted out than humbly resolving to the mystery like the East.

[andreasioannides]

The Eastern Orthodox Church believes in the concept of original sin, but its understanding differs from that of Western Christianity, particularly from the Augustinian perspective. While Eastern Orthodoxy acknowledges the inheritance of a sinful condition from Adam and Eve, it doesn't interpret original sin as resulting in guilt passed down through generations as heavily emphasized in Western Christianity.

Eastern Orthodox theology often emphasizes the concept of ancestral sin, which acknowledges the consequences of Adam and Eve's disobedience but doesn't attribute personal guilt to subsequent generations in the same way as Western views of original sin.

Regarding Pelagianism, the Eastern Orthodox Church rejects it. Pelagianism is the belief that humans can attain salvation through their own efforts without divine grace. This contradicts Orthodox theology, which emphasizes the necessity of God's grace for salvation and the belief in the fallen nature of humanity due to original sin or ancestral sin.

[Basil_in_the_Wild]

This was perhaps the WORST representation of Orthodox theology I’ve ever seen. I’ve seen Muslims with more accurate understanding of Christianity than this

[louismarx]

I grew up Dutch Reformed and joined the Orthodox Church in my early 20s, I still have a lot of love for the Reformed Church in many of its aspects, and I don't mean to sound harsh here, but as someone who has lived both the Orthodox and Reformed worldview I can say that you don't get Orthodoxy yet. Every time you comment on Orthodoxy it comes off as: 1. Only having a cursory understanding of Orthodoxy, being dismissive and condescending (I don't blame you for the latter though considering how the Orthodox online treat you). and 2. Very heavily from a Western Lens. The First point is something that you can get over relatively easily by reading more in depth Orthodox theological works. The second point is something that would be much more difficult for you.

I don't believe you're claiming to be unbiased when talking about Orthodoxy but I know you're honest enough to try and give an accurate representation, which is not something that can be done when you're limiting yourself to viewing Orthodoxy from an academic lens. When you dissect a creature, it is killed, its blood is drained, and you take it apart. From this you can only learn things about its anatomy and some general understanding of its lifestyle, but you cannot learn anything in depth about its life. Orthodoxy is the same way, you're not getting it because you're viewing it from an outside perspective rather than attempting to understand it as a living Faith and worldview.

[Raxel]

As a former Roman Catholic, one of the reasons to explain why I converted to Orthodoxy was because it was a way closer faith than one out the 9, 999 Protestant denominations. ☦

[TomFitzgerald-vwqf]

Despite these differences with our orthodox brethren, we will still find them in heaven with us ✝️❤️☦️

[danielbruceagra]

As a Catholic, no, I know terminally online eastern orthodox are malevolent with catholics, but we are closer to them in many ways despiter our differences than protestants, with expetion of papacy, filioque, type of bread and malevolence of e-orthodox and e-trads

[bmmk]

When so much of the world is caught in conversation of war, politics, economics, celebrity...there is something blissfully refreshing about having ancient and timeless conversations around Theology! Doesn't matter what side you're on, it's such a great camaraderie of brothers and sisters in the charitable pursuit of Truth!