Were the Book of Mormon witnesses lying, tricked, or telling the truth? Ep. 101

At this point in Faith and Beliefs, Dave has done episodes on the 3 Witnesses, the 8 Witnesses, the unofficial witnesses, and he’s addressed the theory that Joseph Smith used hypnotism to dupe the witnesses of the Book of Mormon plates. In this episode, Dave presents the 6 most popular theories that attempt to explain the experiences of the witnesses. Ultimately, it is up to each individual to weigh the evidence (both temporal and spiritual) and make a decision for themselves about what they believe.

Episode on the informal witnesses here: [pending]
As kind of an umbrella source on all things having to do with the witnesses, I highly recommend reading Richard Lloyd Anderson’s excellent book, “Investigating the Book of Mormon Witnesses.”

Notes:

There are a couple of important things to remember about this citation. First, it was recorded by Turley about 6 years after the events in question occurred. Thus, there’s always room for error there. Second (and in my mind, more importantly), remember that John Whitmer acted as Joseph Smith’s scribe for a time during the translation of the Book of Mormon. What he meant by “supernatural power” could be explained by similar language attributed to John via Byron Bond in 1877/78 (recorded only 7 months after the fact):

-Fawn Brodie rather unsurprisingly employs a quote from Thomas Ford’s “History of Illinois” to shrug off the experience of the witnesses. According to Ford, Joseph Smith had the witnesses pray for hours before gathering them in a room and showing them an empty box. When those present said they didn’t see any plates, Joseph apparently responded that they needed to pray harder for faith and forgiveness. Then “they were now persuaded that they saw the plates.”

The list of things wrong with Ford’s retelling is very long, but it sufficeth to say that his only sources for this information are anonymous “men who were once in the confidence of the prophet…”. The stories from the actual people involved tell a different story. As a funny side-note, on the previous page, Ford doesn’t even get the names of the 3 witnesses right. He writes,

SUBSCRIBE:

Follow Us:

Follow David:

[edenicchristian]

As someone who is just interested in learning more about the LDS movement, I find your videos very well done. You leave it up to the person, without pushing an opinion on them. Not many people do that any more.

[Mcmj-otdt]

Joseph Smith's face crudely pasted onto Ironman's body was gold.

[emilyroberts]

My grategrandfather tolled a story of when he was a little boy. asleep in his room, he was awakened when his grandmother shook the side of his bed, smiled at him, then walked out. He said there was a light around her, and that she was wearing a crustal white robe, had White hair, and that her feet never touched the ground! Come to find out that next morning (he didn't even know) but she died well before he went to bed that night!

BUT!! He described her exactly how Joseph described the Angle Moroni and Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ to look!!!
And there's NO way he could have known that. He knew nothing of the Church. And nun of his family were members!?!?!🙏🙏

[brettmajeske]

A nice capstone to a great series of videos. Thanks.

[timovesterinen]

I'm not a Latter day saint but am fascinated about these issues. Could you guys estimate how much 40-60lb lead, iron, copper or tin cost back in 1829, Palmyra? It would tell something about the forgeing theory. Could Joseph Smith have realistically afforded to that amount of metal, then? Maybe the topic for a new video..?!

[stutterstudios]

The ‘cat-typing’ gif was adorable it made me smile. Good job inserting these bits in. They flow and don’t seem forced

[leem]

I'm impressed with the editing. Really nice!
And as strong a case as I've ever heard about the witnesses. Just goes to show either side looking down on each other won't win. I really like the respectful approach here.
Focusing on the witnesses is a bit of a two edged sword though, because it brings up the question of why they eventually found Joseph difficult enough to stop following him - when they claimed such proof. And I'm suspicious of just trusting Joseph's side of the story in all cases. The witnesses have at least some credibility.

[BettyHorn]

Probably one of your best episodes ever.

[Whatiftheresmore]

Love you videos!
They are fun, informative and just give facts, not tell me how to think about them. 🙌🏻❤️☀️

[Hesaysalot]

There’s no evidence to prove it one way or another. Faith and reasoning are different things.

There is no evidence that exists that would fully satisfy anyone.

I have doubts sometimes but the other alternatives seem even more unreasonable and absurd than that the witnesses just told the truth.

[richardlusk]

Love you Dave this videos helped me out a lot on my mission

[timneji]

They have funny theories for the BOM but claim the Bible is ture because the Bible says it is. yeh sounds logic for me ...

[joshuatoro]

And are the plates all of them can they be seen today?

[adammcguk]

Martin Harris said he saw Jesus in the form of a deer which followed him on one occasion. Someone prone to seeing such things isn't a great witness.

[redfightblue]

The witnesses would have nothing to gain by exposing the BOM. They believed the BOM had real value in converting the American Indian to Christianity. Christianity is the lower gospel that must be understood before you can be taught the higher gospel in the temple.

[terryv]

A great video to share are the testimony of “The Three Nephites”. I have a book that shares stories of people converts and members who have witnessed “The Three Nephites” these past two centuries. One book that compiled these testimonies is the book “About the three Nephites” by Douglas and Jewel Beardall. I have read the entire book. Interestingly, the testimonies have similarities amongst the stories. These stories are part of our Church history. I would be interested in your thoughts about it. It may be a fun one to do research.

[Hamann]

3:00. One evidence for that idea is the popularity of ex-members with many christians and vehement atheists.

[thefreedomrag]

So I have read the book of Mormon...

I am also a lawyer by trade.

I will start by saying that I don't find the form of witness given particularly compelling.

When a person testifies that something is true then you should seek to record as much background information about the experience.

Where did you see the plates? What day and time did you see the plates? How large were the plates? Did you touch them? What was written on them? Who were you with? What were you doing before you saw the plates? What did you do afterwards? Who did you tell about the plates? What did you say to these different people? Did you discuss the plates with Joseph afterwards or beforehand?

The accounts of the witnesses are lacking in context and detail. If they were a witness to a trial in 1830 you would expect a more comprehensive account.

I do not believe the accounts of the witnesses because I find that they lack sufficient detail to support such a miraculous claim.

The last point that I would say is that the character of the witnesses is on trial too.

You have to ask yourself... Would a person who has directly experiencing the plates join another religion?

As I understand it one witness claimed that he had as much evidence for the book of Mormon as he did for a new revealed shaker gospel.

In short, I am more inclined to believe eye witness accounts of Bigfoot or the lockness monster than I am of these witnesses.

But you are free to believe what you want to believe.

[Timforbel]

Co-conspirators in a crime would be willing to perpetuate the lie if the truth would hurt them financially! Lots of people lost out financially and otherwise in their association with LDS Church, the "eye witnesses" could have been held liable in a court of law and forced to pay restitution. That would be motivation enough not to tell the truth about the lie! If the witnesses really believed the LDS Church was "the true Church" why would they be so willing to leave it? If I faced the potential of losing a law suit for damages by Saints in the loss of income, property or life, I'd be more than willing to say I "saw" anything and believe it myself!!!

[imoutbye]

Consider this. If by the time all these people had bought in to it, left they’d homes to join the faith, if they admitted it was fabricated, wouldn’t they be lynched?

I’d gladly like to see a lunching in that time if these men were a part of a massive scale of fraud. Even hinkleysaid if it’s not true then it’s the greatest fraud in the history of mankind. So if you weeee apart of this, would you confess? Or hope you get to quietly disappear.