India and Pakistan at 75⁠—A Dialogue with Akbar Ahmed and Nirupama Rao

This month, India and Pakistan mark 75 years since independence. The traumatic and tragic events of Partition continue to impact both countries today. They have fought multiple wars and struggled to forge better relations, but they have also pursued some forms of dialogue and cooperation. This event will feature a moderated conversation with Akbar Ahmed and Nirupama Rao, both Wilson Center global fellows and former senior diplomats with a keen understanding of the India-Pakistan relationship and its complexities. They will take stock of the last 75 years, assess what the future might hold, and consider the prospects for dialogue between the two nuclear-armed neighbors.

[jovianjollity]

Interesting discussion but the Pakistani ambassador simply would not admit his country’s role in fomenting terrorism in the region. The Taliban in Afghanistan was propped up by Pakistan. The ( pro Pakistan) Haqqani group was nurtured by Pakistan, and controls important ministries in Talibanized Afghanistan. The Haqqani group was responsible for the deaths of more than 2400 U.S. soldiers who were deployed in Afghanistan, up until August 2021. Even today, Pakistan undeniably abets terrorism (in Afghanistan, India and globally, ) via its proxies, as seen by the recent U.S. drone strike on Ayman Zawahiri, who was hidden (in a property owned by a senior minister of the Haqqani group) in Kabul.

Another former ambassador of Pakistan, Hussein Haqqani, was forthright in his prediction that Pakistan’s use of terrorism as an instrument of that country’s foreign policy would have serious consequences for them, because there can be no “good” terrorists and “bad” terrorists. Today, that has come true as radicals of different groups, particularly the long-repressed Baloch people, are waging a struggle for their rights and sovereignty.

The Pakistani ambassador spoke about the situation in Kashmir and the “plight” of Muslims in India. That is a narrow, personal view of the Pakistan ambassador. Jammu, Kashmir and Ladakh finally have peace and progress today, after decades of terrorism and the brutal ethnic cleansing of Kashmiri Hindus during the 1990s by Pakistan-sponsored Islamic radicals. The former ruler of Jammu and Kashmir, Maharaja Hari Singh, signed the instrument of accession with India, in 1947. Pakistan sent tribal marauders into Kashmir to kill, rape and destroy. Indian troops finally entered Kashmir after the former ruler requested their help. It was Pakistan that illegally occupied territory that legally belongs to India.

There are evidently few Muslims, if any, who migrate from India to Pakistan! There have been some persecuted Shia muslims from Pakistan who sought asylum in India. In fact, India’s Muslim minority of about 200 million is almost the size of the entire population of Pakistan. Effectively, the “two nation theory” propounded by its founder, Jinnah, has long been disproved. In fact, the liberation of Bangladesh in 1971, from erstwhile East Pakistan, despite its Muslim majority, clearly demonstrated that a common religion does not necessarily foster a sense of nationhood, particularly when there were strong cultural animosities, in this case, between the Bengali muslims of the eastern half (who felt discriminated against) and the dominant Punjabi muslims of its western half.

India was compelled to intervene in Pakistan’s civil war because its (Pakistan’s) military was carrying out a genocide (known as "Operation Searchlight") of its own citizens- mostly its Bengali Hindu minority in former east Pakistan. India had to provide for an influx of about 10 million refugees from former East Pakistan, an untenable situation for a developing economy. A well-researched book, titled, ‘The Blood Telegram, ’ by Professor Gary Bass of Princeton University, provides a detailed account of this terrible history, as seen from developments and reactions on the U.S. side.

For 75 years, India has been a vibrant democracy, while Pakistan has been mostly run as a private enterprise of its military, with its shaky economy worsened by China’s debt-trap diplomacy.
Pakistan struggles with its basic identity: is it truly a country for the Muslims of the Indian subcontinent, or a country that grew out of the disgruntlement of a former “ruling class” that saw itself as the inheritors of India’s Mughal rule, which by all true indications (in boastful written accounts left by the scribes of those rulers) was very bigoted and brutal towards the Hindu majority. It's also suggested that classic British colonial 'divide and rule' played a formative role in Jinnah's idea of the "two nation theory."

The Pakistan ambassador is deluded if he believes his country will thrive on the largesse of other countries, particularly Chinese loans, weapons and an endless supply of terrorists coming out of its fanatical Islamic madrassas. With its nuclear weapons, it’s a dangerous combination of factors.

Michael Kugelman seemed to imply that it was the election of Narendra Modi in 2019, that has set back the relationship between India and Pakistan. As ambassador Rao pointed out, Modi was re-elected in a free and fair election, with an overwhelming majority. It’s not Modi who is changing the political climate of India, but India’s Hindus who wanted a party that articulated their aspirations and reflected India’s ancient and inclusive Hindu ethos. If Modi had not emerged as a leader, there would have been another leader like him!

[dheeranvinoth]

This Pakistan dude is just not able to understand that terrorism has no place in Kashmir, and the king of Kashmir gave Jammu and Kashmir to India.

[arjitas]

As many have commented, the Pakistani gentleman needs to face some realities. How are the Hindus, Buddhists or Sikhs being treated in their country? The Katas Raj temple he mentioned is in ruins. Also, leave alone the other religions, how are the Shia or the Ahmedis being treated? Also, he speaks of Iqbal who died before Pakistan existed. He very much died an Indian, I am afraid.

[valvirchauhan]

The Pakistani Ambassador is very soft-spoken. He was clear in his agenda. Since there was no counter questioning he spoke in length about what a Pakistani propagandist will always speak. So he hasn't surprised me.

Let me clarify some of the points he said.

1. He is saying, we need to teach our common history to our future generations. That's true for Pakistanis. They are teaching false history and trying to find out their roots in Arab and Turkey. Mohd bin Qasim, Mohd Gajnavi, and Abdali were all invaders who not only looted but raped their ancestors and converted them to Islam. These are the heroes of Pakistanis being taught and celebrated. It's hard for them to accept the fact that their forefathers were Hindus and were from this region only. they did not come from Arab or central Asia.

2. He talks that we need to teach our people/students about Mohenjo Daro, Taksheela, and Sindu civilization. Again it is true but Pakistanis don't accept these facts and are always in denial about their real history. In India, it's available in our textbooks.

3. He says India never accepted Pakistan's existence! should have been a counter question to him, then why do both countries are having Embassies in each other's countries? it is a false narrative created by their military rulers to remain in power. He must be knowing that all 4 wars were initiated by Pakistan. India never initiated an attack on Pakistan, 1948 Kabilai invasion, 1965 Operations Gibraltar, 1971 Bombing, and 1999 Kargil invasion. All these mistakes are accepted by their retired senior armed forces people. But they will always create a perception that India is an existential threat to them.

4. He has all praise for Mohd Ali Jinnah. That's fine for him as being Pakistani. but wants Indians to read about Jinnah that how a good secular leader he was! wow! A man who said, Muslims and Hindus are separate races, have different cultures, food, clothing, etc. hence can't live together in Independent India as Hindu majoritarian will not give rights to minorities! Then Demanded a separate country for Muslims in the areas where Muslims were in majority!! Those living in minority were vulnerable as he said. All he lefts in India!!! WOW! Such a visionary and secular leader he was. after partition millions of people were massacred due to the division of the country based on religious hatred. which has further grown even after the 75 yrs of division. He was a good negotiator and maybe a lawyer but certainly not a visionary leader.

5. He says teaching about Gandhi and but In Pakistan, they both are already being taught as ' Fascist and Hinduwadi" leaders. Suddenly, there is love for Gandhi and Nehru in Pakistan. If Gandhi and Nehru were so good then why did Jinnah demand Pakistan?

6. Kashmir, must be aware of the fact that i) Jinnah offered Kashmir in exchange for his claims on Hyderabad and Junagarh Muslims ruled princely states which were having Hindu majority. but He rejected it. knowingly that both states are middle of India and are Hindu majority. He wouldn't be able to hold his ground. ii) He had a standstill agreement with the King Hari Singh of J&K princely state. despite that, they sent Pakistani army regulars as Qabayali and invaded Kashmir. The King asked India for help and India did give it but only after signing the accession instrument documents with India. This is how Kashmir legally becomes a part of India and then the army started its operations and retreived invaded landed about 85%. The reason is best known to Nehru who went to the UN. Thus Kashmir became disputed. Pakistan was an ally of the west and got all its support from them till 9/11 happened. iii) Indian Army was only within borders till 1989 to control any aggression of Pakistan. Once the Afghan war was over, the Pakistani army started sending those Jihadis who they trained, into Kashmir. We all know it took a while for India to manage the state-sponsored Terrorism in the valley. Kashmiri pandits genocide in 1990 forced India to increase its strength in Kashmir.
iv) West never understood our situation and struggle with state-sponsored terrorism and kept supporting their ally (Pakistan). but 9/11 opened the eyes of the West.

7) Nuclear war! No Pakistani is a scholar if he doesn't use this threat. Pakistan is a bully in the region created by America to control India. it's fact. nuke threat coming from Pakistan is not new. Their prime ministers used this threat from UN platform too. So Ambassador Akbar Ahmed not surprised here too.

8) Pakistanis claim that they had a great economy in the past. But whenever there were such things it was only due to the fact that dollars were pumped in by the west( America) or Arabs.

Finally, my suggestion to Mr, Akbar Ahmed, Please do read these two books written by Dr. Ishtiaq Ahmed, a Pakistani-origin Swedish scholar.
i) Jinnah- His successes, failures, and Role in history & ii) Pakistan the Garrison state.

having such grudges against India you wanted to be loved wow! You successfully narrated your propaganda. congrats! but at the same time, you exposed yourself too. unlike Pakistanis, We Indians read lots of books. So Your propaganda would be countered

@Amb Nirupama Rao maintaining the decorum of the forum you rightly didn't counter his propaganda. as He was exposing himself.

[shivendraupadhyay]

Teaching of correct history, deradicalisation of education system and governance is required for Pakistan, else it will go on atleast for another century between 2 nations !

[sadhuu]

……different food, different dressing, different values, different language, different birth customs, different death customs, different gods, different architecture, different art …….and different RNA………..clash of civilization is onnn since 1000 years…...🤣🤣

[hemaltrivedi]

To resolve any issue, there needs to be intent and capability, while India has shown both intent and certainly has capability, unfortunately Pakistan never has the intent to resolve the Kashmir Issue, with very simple reason, if the issue is non existent and there is peace, what justifies the need of Pakistan Army to control the country?

[chakradharmahapatra]

Without acknowledging the vectors of terrorism from Pakistan, Akbar Ahmed was parroting the familiar Pakistani threats of nuclear war. Pakistan can't be allowed to use jihadi terror as a foreign policy tool under the cover of dangers of nuclear war in South Asia.

[mohsinafzaal]

Excellent discussion! Loved both the Ambassadors! Loved Ambassador Rao’s statement “Kashmiris should be allowed to visit on both sides of the border” ….. enough is enough this madness must stop 🛑

[vinodkiran]

This relationship will not get better in any near future and hopefully it doesn't get worse. India doesn't need Pakistan as much as Pakistan needs. Simply India is too big and much developed than Pakistan. Pakistan has to learn to keep Kashmir issue de-coupled while negotiating with India. They have to see how India and China negotiate keeping disputed territories and border issues away. Pakistan is more concerned of 7 million J&K muslims rather than its own 220 million population. It should understand what is more important. The bilateral trade and peace with India or Kashmir.

[psarathy]

it was pakistan who stopped the talk and trade ; india has nothing to loose ;

[SarveshShrivastava-vivg]

This discussion very deftly steered the conversation to the past. Where are both countries now and what is the future was more important.

[asadabbasmirza]

Rift is created since Jinnah attacked Kashmir.
Distorted history.
Every thing wrong.

[naeemkhan]

food for thoughts, thank you Wilson Centre.

[boy]

Akbar Ahmed shows that just because you have some fancy degrees from fancy universities doesn’t mean really know much or are honest and truthful.

[IndranilFromIndia]

Pakistan never gave any rights to their religious minorities. I dont understand why they expect non-Muslim countries to treat Muslims well. When the erudite gentleman talks about persecution of Muslims in India, maybe he should be asking this question about this own country.

[StormTrooper-wpbm]

LOL the Pakistani Ambassador seems to not know that Pakistan is more close to Turkey than to India

[imaginedhistory]

More needs to be said on India's atrocities towards Muslims currently under modi

[yjkbuddy]

If illama Iqbal wrote sare jahan se acha hindusitha hamara then why did he wanted partition????lol don't tell stupid things here...Islam as a religion should be handled with care...u wanted a land of pure u got it...for kafirs india is there so mind ur own business

[ON-tkbp]

Balanced professional and an excellent dialogue.