Arminianism's Prevenient Grace

Dan Chapa is back with Dr. Flowers to discuss more about the Arminian doctrine of Prevenient Grace. Theology geeks won't want to miss this LIVE DISCUSSION!

[VeryBasicBible]

Great discussion. I liked Dan's mythological Sword of Whatever analogy. It kinda explained prevenient grace from yet another angle. But mostly, I like how Leighton kept coming back to the simplest of terms and analogies, asking the same simple questions and stating stuff the same plain ways. Shows just how simple and normal provisionism is.

[JohnQPublic]

Wow! That was a good one. Finally a non-Provisionist brought something intelligible to the table.

I love you brother Chapa. You are way smarter than I am, but I must appeal to Scripture and what it says about the Scriptures. The passage in Hebrews 4:12 begins with, "For the word of God is LIVING and ACTIVE..." God's word is a LIVING thing...they are LIVING words. They are never dead words on a page. They are also ACTIVE. They aren't inactive at any point or time. They are always ACTIVE. They are nothing like my words that I speak or even write. There is never a time when the words of God are ever dead or inactive. They are always alive...they are always living...and they are always active.

Isaiah 55:11 states, " So WILL My WORD be which goes forth from My mouth;
It WILL NOT return to Me EMPTY, WITHOUT ACCOMPLISHING what I desire, and WITHOUT SUCCEEDING in the matter for which I sent it." God's word will never return to Him empty. It will always accomplish what He desires and will succeed in the matter for which He sent it. God's word is incredibly powerful. So, when John tells me this in John 20:31, " but these have been WRITTEN SO THAT YOU MAY BELIEVE THAT JESUS is the CHRIST, the Son of God; AND that BY BELIEVING you may have LIFE in His name." then I believe it is true. The Scriptures are God's work and words...not man's. Always living, always active, always accomplishing what He desire and succeeding in the matter for which He sent them. I have heard testimonies from many, many people who have received Jesus Christ, the Son of God after they've read the Gospel of John. God's Word can do this!

[helgeevensen]

God gave us the prophets, apostles, evangelists, who wrote down the words of God, He sent Jesus who reconciled us to God, Jesus commanded us to go and preach the Gospel to all creation, and by the words preached (and by the words written) God is working on the hearts and man can receive salvation... this is so simple, that people must have "help" in order to misunderstand it ... and we have had 2000 years of history in which there has been given a lot of this "help" .... :)

[oprophetisfake]

I think Dr Flowers wants a very specific definition of what prevenient grace is sometimes and often there is no specific definition of what prevenient grace is. Prevenient grace is lots of things that God does to draw men unto Himself and enable them to make free choices to accept the salvation He offers, or be wilful and reject His view of our state and the offer He has made which, if continued till death, will lead to our eternal separation from God and all His blessings.
I think that when Dr Flowers speaks about common grace he actually envisages a lot of things that most people would not consider as common grace. To me common grace is waking up every day, and the rain that God sends on the evil and the good alike, and some level of intelligence and physical strength etc. I may believe that God draws all men to Himself, but I still see the means by which He does that as supernatural even when they appear to be natural, as well as things that appear to be supernatural like God giving a believer a word of knowledge or wisdom for me.
Anyway I am very glad to listen to Dr Flowers as well as the other Provisionists and Arminians that he brings to more people's awareness through these discussions. God bless him, and God bless you all.

[HoytRoberson]

The narrative was preached, taught, and written in human language so that you can believe it (see John). The message has power because it is truth. You are capable of understanding the message. There is no secret or inability.

[oprophetisfake]

Apologetics from the attic asked something about a person being stubborn and hardened hearing gospel. There can be a great deal of difference between simply hearing the words of a gospel presentation and hearing and understanding the bad news and the gospel so as to be able to respond to it. You can hear the words with just your ears like a sounding gong and be untouched by them, but if you actually hear in your soul what God is saying to you through the gospel presentation then yes God has given you all the means you need to repent of unbelief and other sins and believe in Jesus and be saved, but it still depends on you accepting those means. God is still drawing not dragging even though when the believer does respond and accept the salvation it can seem to him as though he (or she) could have done no other.

[dpcrn]

The discussion almost went into an area that I think would be productive but may be impossible to fully clarify because it is just too philosophical:

What about that infant to toddler age? Do they have total inability at that point in time? We are very selfish and self-centered when we are born. We may not realize it— all we know is we want to be fed when hungry, very upset when we’re wet, and if we cry out people fix that. That seems to be to be a natural state of being that we learn very quickly makes us feel better. So is that selfishness an innate sinful state? Does that sinful state condition have to be changed supernaturally in order for us to understand that we shouldn’t be egocentric?

[apilkey]

So is Dan saying everyone after the Cross who has never heard of Jesus Christ will go to hell even if they worship and follow God the Father?

He would also have to say all babies go to hell to remain consistent.

[Davisme]

A suggestion, keeping the background dark would be much better..

[arcticfox]

Millions have read the Bible but have never chosen to believe and choose salvation. Something in man must be able to respond to the Spirit even if he has read the Bible.
What is it in man that responds to, or reject the Spirit?

[kfelinePeru]

I have a scale in my head one side has "arminian weights" the other "provisionist weights" but it is tiping provisionist a little more 🤔

[sarahjayneespana]

Can u also discuss about the Lordship salvation... Whats good and bad about it..

[tjseaney_]

For me the disagreement is simple. In Dan's mind Dr. Leighton Flowers is conflating the means (the Word) and Person (God). So that, the means and the person are inseparable and not distinct entities. Which is why he deems it necessary to make a distinction. Hence, the scalpel and the Doctor. It is necessary on a Provisionism system to conflate means and person. This creates a logical loophole they can jump through. Armenians and Calvinist cannot jump through this loophole.
This is important because is gives the words an "ontological" status. Meaning, there is no inherent difference between what God says and who He is. I am not sure this can be defended biblically. It is an interesting thought.

[apilkey]

@33:50 God’s Word is the Sword and it’s not “flailing around aimlessly every which way.”

Dan has it backwards.

It’s 👉US👈 that is flopping around.

We can let His Word cut us to the heart or we can resist.

We can lay freely and willingly on the operating table or we can flip around.

It’s not the Sword that’s flopping around every which way.

For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

[joemarisolmeron]

Very long meaningful convo
But I guess I should be listening more from both of your points since this video has a lot of open ended thoughts that seems not totally resolve correct me if I'm wrong
What I mean you went too many ideas and the time didn't permit to finish it all 😊
And my limited mind was not able to understand it all completely

[JohnQPublic]

Dr. Flowers needs to have all of his guests define what the Gospel is before the conversation begins because Calvinists and Arminians don't know what the Gospel is.

[davidtrue]

I'm about 37 minutes in, so I do not know if this gets resolved later in the discussion, but it seems that there may be a conflation of man being convicted and God replacing the hardened hearts with a heart of flesh. The means in which a man may be convicted (the gospel, the Spirit, dreams, other individuals, the car, boat, and helicopter, etc.) are means that God uses to convict the individual to allow Him to do the heart transplant.

Basically, God uses these means to bring people to Him, then God saves/regenerates them, but the people must be willing to truly come to Him when and how He convicts (draws) them.

[arcticfox]

All men have been given the inner ability to respond to the gospel. Why do some respond to the gospel and others don't?

[KISStheSON...]

Dan is correct...there is a prerequisite for believing the gospel.
The LAW was given for the KNOWLEDGE OF SIN to make us GUILTY.
Guilt is the prerequisite...the law is the schoolmaster to bring us to Christ.
Now that I have been proven guilty I have become hopeless and the gospel is sent to BRING the guilty sinner HOPE!
Here is some BASIC instruction to receive hope:
Romans 3
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace THROUGH the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to DECLARE HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To DECLARE, I say, AT THIS TIME HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

28 Therefore we CONCLUDE that a man is justified BY FAITH without the deeds of the law.

I DECLARE the righteousness of Christ Jesus...cuz my righteousness is busted! 🤗😁