Sheila Jeffreys & Lauren Levey, UK and USA, Butch as a Lesbian Gender Identity #WDI #FQT

This week’s speakers:

Sheila Jeffreys & Lauren Levey, UK and USA, Butch as a Lesbian Gender Identity.
aurora linnea, USA, No Shelter for Women.
Amparo Domingo, Spain, Update on Spain.
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Feminist Question Time with speakers from UK, USA & Spain

[xxhaver]

9:21: "If no women are willing to be enslaved ... how could patriarchy continue? ... if there were no slaves there could be no masters ... don't participate in your own oppression."

All victim-blaming statements.

[spikey_labrys]

I've never liked the term Butch, here in the UK it was either a big stupid man's name, or a big stupid dog's name.

[lesleyfarrington]

Gender Identity has a totally different meaning than it did in the 1970s. This conflation is really unhelpful

[gayechapman]

Butch is an aspect of our personalities, not an identity. No political lesbian can speak for an actual lesbian. Is this punch down on butches month?

[bastetowl]

i think shelia has some valid criticisms because there are still some lesbians that think that if you’re butch you have to be a top, only date femmes, or have certain interests and personality traits. however, i think, at least among young ppl, it’s become more common to use butch when the women’s personal style typically is short hair/clothes from the men’s section ALONG with her mannerisms/body language and way of speaking seeming to be read as more traditionally masculine. basically they’re also women that tend to get missexed more often by wider society even without taking hormones or getting surgery.

nowadays i think it’s considered normal to be butch but also date whoever you want, do whatever you want in bed, and have whatever interests/profession you want. bdsm is still an issue unfortunately, and even femme4femme couples participate in it. it’s not a butch exclusive thing. i also don’t get how you came to the conclusion that drag kinging is a direct parallel to drag queening. i thought it was always a parody or mockery of hypermasculinity. plus butch women do tend to face more violent hate crimes compared to other lesbians because they’re not acting the way a woman is supposed to act according to society. i wonder why you chose to focus on butch women for this talk, who are actually gender non confirming, compared to the femmes that often enact feminine stereotypes you usually criticize? also the reason butch women transition is due to society saying there’s only one right way to be a real woman and not because they’re taking their roleplay to the next level or whatever the conclusion of this talk was

[rsu]

*butch (n.)*

"tough youth, " 1902, first attested in nickname of U.S. outlaw George Cassidy (1866-?), probably an abbreviation of *butcher* (n.). Sense of "aggressive lesbian" is by 1940s. As an adjective by 1941.

- etymology dictionary

[marionb]

It's a phase that you go through in response to the feedback on the way people see you carry yourself in the world.

Identity is not who you are, it's your mask and it is not problematic as long as it's an armor you can summon to deal with certain life situations, and you can remove it at will.

I'm not against the discussion. It's just the timing right now is poor, as we are treated worse than male AGPs.

[kellysouter]

Didnt we used to have some equality? Im very over the whole notion of gender identity. People are a spectrum, not polarised and locked into a persona. Its all very two dimensional and people really have at least three. It seems childish, like gangs, for people to be strapped into identities so rigidly.

[elegationvain]

I think "lesbian" is an identity that appeals to different women for different reasons. It doesn't simply mean "exclusively same sex attracted female". Some lesbian identified women are indeed just SSA. But the lesbian community is also home to political lesbians, for whom radical feminism is more intrinsic to their identity than homosexuality is. They're "lebsian" in the service of their philosophy, not due to an innate attraction. Then other women are attracted to performing masculinity and they enjoy the butch/femme dynamic because it facilitates that performance of hyper (or, lets be honest, toxic) masculinity. These two motivations are obviously completely at odds with one another. Then you have the genuinely same sex attracted women, who I imagen are sick of these two warring factions of women who have appropriated their sexuality and presume to speak on their behalf. Anyway, I just feel bad for actual lesbians who are not obsessed with men (either hating them or impersonating them), but who just love women and don't care about this culture war bs.

[karlaarnold]

Butch is not an identity. It is as expression of our personality! Lose the identity lie!

[laurenlevey]

Radical feminists examine aspects of culture to see how they either support or undermine patriarchy. As I said in this presentation, butch means masculine; not "not feminine" or ungendered. If its meaning makes you uncomfortable, maybe that's a reason to examine the concept.

[SourPatches]

Dirt for Dirt is insane. 😂 using her to talk about anything is ridiculous.

[laurenlevey]

Butch means: of the masculine gender. Check any dictionary. Don’t you think that changing its meaning to include its opposite — nongendered — seems a lot like redefining the word woman to include men?

[maryross]

Best thing I’ve watched in a long time. Thanks.

[mayswathford]

I'm a trans woman and I love Sheila Jeffreys