'The Lesbian Heresy' by Sheila Jeffreys discussed by Anna Prats and Sheila Jeffreys

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[laurenlevey]

As I recall, “born that way” made a comeback in the US when gay male lawyers decided to pursue decriminalization and gay marriage under the legal theory that gay is analogous to Black. Black civil rights cases had been successfully argued, based on born-that-way and immutable. So it became seen as undermining the fight for equality to say, as Alix Dobkin did, that any woman can be a lesbian — regardless of what might be true.

[ceramicowl]

Only when two feminists talk to each other you can see pure female joy and connection. Such a contrast with how women talk to men or to other women while seeing them through the prism of internalised male perception. No awkward laughs, no forced smiles, no fake politeness, only the natural movements and expressions.

[ninatrygg]

this makes me feel a bit sick to learn what happened in my out decade..
​lesbians helped heterowomen in the 1970s and then gay men in the 1980s.. who will help lesbians now...we are not the caretakers nor mommies of other sexual orientations and do not have to cater to those who fetishize us.

[Gemmations]

I found this very interesting because I knew I was a lesbian since I was very little. I've never even kissed a man, I would not be able to be with one. So I understand why people might feel like they were born gay, but I completely agree on political lesbianism and that you do have a choice, you are not bound to your destiny of heterosexuality for all your life, even a woman who has lived great part of her life as a straight woman. Choice perhaps is misunderstood in believing someone can wake up one day and decide they're gonna be lesbians. It's about a deep revaluation of your life and yourself that can bring you to making this choice. I am no expert but I couldn't find any science supporting the claim we are born straight or gay. Sexuality is deeply connected to the social sphere and when there is a deep and gradual change into our belief system like the discovery of radical feminism is to many women, I do believe its perfectly understandable for your sexuality to be affected as well. One thing is sure, newborns are not lesbians, sexuality can simply arise very early in life and this can make you believe you were born that way. But if you just had another life, another family, different experiences, you could have just as easily been straight, its the environment that shapes our sexuality. Saying we are born that way would suggest there is a genetical reason why someone is gay, but identical twins have different sexualities; when I was little of course I looked at boys as my first choice, that's what society taught me, but I just looked away, now in a sense that was my choice, that was an understanding of things, and I dont see why a woman doing this at an older age as a result of feminist understanding would not be a "real lesbian".

[ewitherell]

I really appreciate this talk and plan to get this book. The most frustrating aspect of this is how algorithms bury this channel and so many others. I have tested this - algorithms want us to listen to the salacious garbage and gossip. Thank you so much, I have the kindle version.

[susana.esteves]

I thought that people were born lesbians, they couldn't "choose it". I even thought, just as you expressed, that saying that sexual orientation could be changed was homophobic. As more I got involved in feminism and desconstructing all my mentality around everything and so on, I got to understand more and more the fact that our sexuality, like so many other things, is socially constructed. If it's something that is constructed, it is something that can be changed. Heterossexuality is something that is imposed on women, getting involved with men it's not really a choice, it's what we learn. It's like shaving our legs. We don't really do it because it's a choice and we like it. We can "like it" but it's because of all the social construction around that, the fact that we are expected to do so, the fact that we are praised when we do it, and punished when we don't do it. The "liking" something process really has to be understood in the context of the norms of the society and what we learn from society. The same thing goes for heterossexuality. We are celebrated when we're straight, and punished when we're not. What moves us to a relationship, inclunding a sexual relationship, what we look for, what we desire, what we want, is all a construction, and usually the one that is socially constructed, because it is so powerful. What we want really can change. I got into pornography with 4 years old and since then got addicted to it (I no longer am). I really thought my sexuality couldn't change, that I would always like those things. But it did change, and it also took my decision to do so. I now understand that I didn't "naturally" like those type of sexual things, but that I Learned to like them, through exposure, observation, imitation, that I learned from society all the pornographic stuff and learned to like it and decided to continue liking them. What we desire or want can change, and we can make a better change, a better decision, that is, desiring relationships more equal, more in line with our values, more respectful and so on. You can wish to have a relationship with someone that is adventurous, because you "like" adventurous people. But that "liking" can change over the time, and if your values differ you might want to have a relationship with other kind of people. And just like the others characteristics that make you desire to want to have a relationship with someone, gender is one characteristic really really important, and something that we don't consider it to be. Understading that heterossexuality is about a power dynamic, in the context of a society where women are oppressed by men is really important. I don't think we born with certain wants in sexuality, including sexual orientation, because sexuality is learned within a society. When we understand all that goes on with heterossexual relationships, and what women have to submit to, Choosing not to have a relationship with a man, and/or have a relationship with a woman is a political choice. The personal is political. Just as choosing not to use makeup, or not shaving, or not to "desire" things that are not good for us. That said, I wanted to have relationships with women as long as I can remember. But since we are childs we understand the concept of gender, of the role of men and women and the oppresion of women by men, not in a counscious way, but it's obviously visible and felt by us with all the norms that are imposed on us, and the way we see the world and how people behave. We learn all of that. When we understand that gender is actually the foundation of this oppresive system, we can understand that the way we're going to have relationships with a man or a woman is really a product of that society or the resistance of the individual to that "norm" established by society. Yes, I wanted to have relationships with women since I can remember, because I was choosing that early, without even knowing it, to have the type of relationship I wanted, an equal one, you're not going along with what is expected of you, the "woman" to have a relationship with the "man". I didn't want a "man", and all of what that means in the context of this society, I wanted a "woman" and all of what that means in the context of this society. Just like when I didn't want to wear dresses or be "feminine" at all. It was all a decision. At the time, as a kid, I couldn't grasp all that led to that decision or even that it was a decision because I didn't know feminism yet. I never responded to a comment. I just thought that I really wanted to share my thoughts with you, because I remember that I held your point of view before and I defended it to people and I didn't think people could "choose" to be lesbians". I thought that ok, if someone "chooses" then that person is actually bissexual and then chooses only to have relationships with women. But really, our sexuality is something that is really blank at the start, something that we construct and evolves over time, and since early on we just learn things and "want" things based on everything on society, just like everything else, about the relationships that we learn, sexuality is not something that is an expection. And feminism is really dedicated to question everything that people claim to be "natural" or an "essence" like gender identity, like men are "natural" this and women "natural" that and "women naturally like men" and women "naturally like this". And this is one more of that thing, "we are born lesbian" or " we are born straight" "I'm naturally like this". When sexuality, like everything else, is something that is learned. I also want to say that we actually even learn to say that we were born this way, and I really think it's because we don't understand all that goes into that decision, but with feminism we can grasp it, we can understading it. Just like a woman might not realize why they like make up so much, or all the feminine stuff, but with feminism, they really can. They can understand all of the mechanisms that led them to have a certain desire. The same happens in sexuality. I also think that we kind have the need to say "we were born this way" in order to be more accepted in this society that is so homophobic, it's like "I can't help but to be this way", because if it was a choice, people would be more prone to trying to convert us into having straight relationships.

[hollylawford-smith]

the phd student work sheila mentions around 18.00, is that available?

[carolsolomon]

Sheila keeps calling an innate attraction to other women, biological. This is gaslighting where you’d least expect it IMO. I came out in 1972 because I was actually attracted to women. Calling this “biological” as Sheila insists on doing, is patently absurd, and simply inaccurate. My attraction to women is a FEELING, not something you can put in a Petrie dish, as Sheila’s assertion implies. I have no problem with women deciding to be lesbian. I DO have a problem with the insistence that innate attractions are either invalid or rare, and ought to be minimized in importance. I was told clearly as a child what choices I ought to make regardless of my feelings. I went with feelings.

[catsaresocute]

I think Shila is ignoring a lot there. Sexuality definetly is innate, but a lot more people appear to be bi then openly living as bi