D&D vs. Pathfinder - Monks

Welcome to D&D vs Pathfinder, where I discuss the strengths and weaknesses of both systems! Today, I discuss the "Weirdest" class in both games, monks. Which system does them better? Let's talk about it.

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[rowanbuck]

Monks are probably my favorite classes(conceptually), so glad to see this one.

One thing I think that is worth mentioning is the difference in each classes reliance on ability scores, since the Monks in PF2e are less mad (especially non-ki using monks) in general due to the relatively generous ASI increases while the 5e monks feel like they you feel more starved in terms of ability scores because of how feats cannibalize your ASIs there and reliance on WIS for AC as well as their DEX for AB & Damage(Though they can dump STR there, which helps some). Overall, I think within the system the PF2e Monk has an easier time of it but maybe that's just me!

[nicolasvillasecaali]

Pf2e monk: I'm a master of my own body, wielding it as a sword and a shield perfected to it limits, ready at all times
DnD monk: Please sr, I need to rest to regain my ki or I'm a glorified peasant

[ethanabla]

"Monk is easily the strongest class in DnD 5th edition."

Nonat the optimizing community would like to have a word with you.

[DanTalksGames]

This isn't even a contest. 2e monks aren't just one of the best designed versions of the monk, they're one of the best designed versions of ANY CLASS I've seen in a d20 system. They're super flavourful while having a tonne of build variety, and synergise so well with the three action system. It really is a standout class in the game IMO.

[TheRulesLawyerRPG]

I feel that the key to the Pathfinder Monk is that you get to play with the action economy. Because of Flurry of Blows, nearly every turn you have a choice between making an attack at a - 10 penalty or doing a more effective alternate action

[Zedrinbot]

I think a big thing to note on simplicity: PF2 monks present you with a lot of choices you need to make, whereas 5e, while they have a lot of features, usually the only choice you make (if not doing something odd) is what tradition you want.

In 5e, the features you do get are pretty simple and easy to understand. The worst trip-ups I've seen are people thinking you can combine unarmored defense with say, a racial armor calculation (like lizardfolk's), and, if they multiclass rogue (which is ALREADY a step up in complication), thinking that their unarmed strikes are finesse and count for sneak attack (which they do not--they simply can use dex or str, but they do not have the finesse property.) The other features you do get aren't too hard to understand otherwise, or are situational (like deflect missiles). As long as you focus on dexterity and wisdom, your monk will be just as effective as any other monk, really. Monks and rogues are up there with fighters for what I actually would recommend for new players.

PF2, you don't just have to go pure DEX/WIS. Which stat you prioritize (str for damage, dex for tankyness, or wis for ki usage) will determine how you play your character, and you need to choose martial arts that complement that. I had a player who came from 5e who dumped str and yet wanted to go with the Dragon Tail style, one of the few non-finesse unarmed strikes; he wasn't aware that this basically was going to render him ineffective until I told him how these worked together, and he opted to switch to a more STR focused build. There are more ways to build a character in PF2 that doesn't synergize with itself; but on the flip side, you actually have options as to how to build your character that impact you every step of the way.

[Valthoron]

Having played the 5e monk, I can say it's riddled with problems, being considered by many (including me) a strong contender for WORST class. I haven't had a chance to play pf2e monk but just from the get-go their design seems so much more adaptable to what you want to play, and I really value that.

[Knight_Marshal]

Stunning Strike isn't as great as it seems. You do have to hit and then spend a Ki point, then the target gets a CON save. You know, that monster save that grows really well as you level up to the point where it will hardly ever work?
IN C2 of Critical Role, the monk, Beauregard, used stunning strike 168 times only succeeding 36 times with 3 of those negated by Legendary Resistance. That is a 21% success rate for something that requires a limited resource. Even though CR Stats did not break it down, I bet most of those successes were at lower level before monsters got high CON saves.

Would any other class like its best ability require a limited resouce and then only work 1/5 of the time?

[NXPhoenix]

From my experience playing a 5e Monk it REALLY depends on how generous the GM and group are with short rests. You can nova and kick major ass in combat (Stunning Strike Flurry of Blows--'nuff said) but unless your party can sit for an hour uninterrupted you're a worse two-weapon Fighter. If you're dungeon crawling or going through an enemy compound you usually can't. PF 2e's 10 minute per focus point rest makes that a lot more viable if you're a Ki monk and you don't need it if you go "mundane" monk.

The other issue is that the 5e Monk does have a lot of cool abilities, but they're usually niche and often don't synergize well with each other. Ones that rely on Ki points run into competing with Das Uber Combo mentioned above and, well, there's a reason it's Das Uber Combo.

5e Monks are cool and conceptually I love them, but save for Xtreme movement (yes that extreme is appropriate) and Stunning Fist the other marshals can do most any task better and the casters can debuff better, too.

Also, the subclasses really don't get much to any better, sadly.

[dovhakiinguerra]

Honestly i dont like the 5e monk because i feel that it forces you into certain style while with the pathfinder one i was able to do basicly any idea, currently now i am playing a dwarf monk who SMESHS(KHABIB TIME) with his wrestling complementing it with the mountain or gorila stance, great video

[nemonomen]

5e artificer vs Pf2e inventor and/or alchemist could be interesting.

[elsewhereprince]

The fact that Pathfinder monk is not tied to ki spells (and Wis) is why I love it. I’d like to make a Dex/Cha monk who is a Shadowdancer or a Dex/Int monk who archetypes into wizard.

[Prberts]

I think the Efficiency section highlights the game design differences perfectly. The complaint about the 2E monk being too efficient and getting into a routine too easily, is only a problem because 2E has a system that allows you to do more in a turn. What you just described was EVERY low level 5E character's routine, because there isn't any real actions you can take outside of move and attack (in whatever form your attack takes)

[RagingGolo]

You're the first person I've seen say anything positive about the 5e monk in a few months. Though everyone agrees they need a lot of work, just not in the way you meant. Having read the the PF2 version, yeah, it's a lot better as far as I can tell - the modularity speaks to me, I guess.

[feelingfuzzied]

Before I even watch this video I just wanted to say.

I've played both.

I absolutely hated 5e monk. It felt terrible and gimmicky.

2e pathfinder is one of my favorite classes period.

[cheezeofages]

PF2e Player: 2e did it better!

5e Player: In 5e it's widely considered one of the two worst classes and generally THE worst by many... so yeah. I agree, 2e did it better.

[AzureIV]

Monks in 5e are woefully underpowered, especially at Tier 1 vs most classes, especially heavily below most martials.

[kos_]

About the starting at level 3 thing: I dont think this matters as much for simplicity, sake, as people start off at level 3 generally because everyone knows the game. At least from my experience, we've started at level 1 if someone is new and only start higher if everyone at the table has played before. Obviously this is better in PF2E where starting at level 1 is actually good, but I digress.

[Ciran]

I actually always figured that dwarves would have a strong reason to develop something like martial arts; when you're in tunnels and mines, fighting unarmed makes a lot more sense than trying to swing any kind of weapon.

[Ghostdesuu]

5e monks fall off really hard after around level 7, they just stop getting anything to help them in combat.
I think the perception of them being overpowered exists entirely because most 5e games never get far enough to see the later levels.
It is still competent but it's not even comparable to the impossible gap between lvl 1-4 monks and all the other classes at that point.