Arguments for God are NOT important. Here's why (feat. Cosmic Skeptic)

Arguments for the existence of God are a point of endless discussion among atheist and religious figures alike. Within religious communities themselves, though, it’s a different story. Although I discussed these arguments in my arguments for god’s existence tier list and many other videos, I don’t think people actually believe in God because of the kalam cosmological argument, the teleological argument, the moral argument, the ontological argument, etc.

Here I discuss the 3B model of religious identity, speak with Alex O’Connor of Cosmic Skeptic, and comment on the utility of debating Christian apologists like William Lane Craig.

Cosmic Skeptic:

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[percenthealth]

Maybe my story is more boring than most, but I deconverted for mostly intellectual reasons. Before sending me off to a scary liberal public university, my parents wanted me to take Biola's apologetics course. I did, and actually found it fascinating. I met with very few challenges to my faith in college, but I did make a few atheist friends after moving away from my parents' house. None of them really challenged my faith, but I was obnoxious about challenging their atheism; and they kept countering with points that seemed 1) obviously true, and 2) not at all what my apologetics teachers said that they would say. These instances were few and far between enough that they didn't really add up to much, but I realized that atheists weren't as stupid and misguided as I had been led to believe. I started dabbling in some atheist youtube to figure out what they really think.

At the same time, in my own religious/devotional life, I began struggling with questions about the blatant racism and sexism in the Bible, as well as the question of divine hiddenness. It was frustrating because I had studied the Bible daily for nearly 20 years, and these questions had always bothered me. I usually dismissed them with pat answers or "God has no need to explain himself to us little mortals", but they kept coming back every couple of years. THIS time, I was gonna get to the bottom of it. Surely William Lane Craig or Frank Turek -- those intellectual giants -- had answered questions like this. (My parents were very strict, and didn't let us have or use the internet; since I was on my own now, it would be a simple thing to finally answer these questions that had plagued me for years).

Well, I was shocked to see my favorite apologists constantly dodging or misrepresenting the question. I searched for answers for about half a year, clinging desperately to my cumulative case of favorite apologetics arguments and the few events in my life that I thought were indisputable miracles. I knew there had to be a God, but why did he let his universe operate exactly like it would if there wasn't? Why were all of his miracles in the Bible so theatrical, but his miracles nowadays were barely distinguishable from the natural course of events?

Thanks to channels like this one slowly dismantling all of those apologetic arguments, and thanks to the Christian apologists doing absolutely nothing to answer my original question, I finally admitted to myself that I was no longer a believer.

[sneakylemon]

I remember having a conversation with someone who was trying to convert me and talking about the reasons why I didn't believe... and after speaking with them I realised the primary motivation behind her faith was that she had lost so many people who were all Christians and she had so much hope to see them again in heaven and that was the argument she was trying to impress onto me. But it fell completely flat because all the people close to me aren't Christian and the thought that all of them would burn in hell while i coasted along in heaven was just horrifying. She kept saying to me like "isn't it the most wonderful gift you could ask for to be with your loved ones forever" and I'm like... no.. because I wouldn't. And if I really believed that I would have to try and convert all of them which would likely just lead to estrangement from them in this life. But I stopped having that conversation there because I realised that her faith was her way of coping with her loss and I didn't want to feel like I was trying to take that away from her. The problem was just that it lead to a lot of other awful beliefs like a lot of homophobia and other issues.

[vaclavhusak]

I remember my first religious experience. Ecstatic feelings of love, meaning, certainty about gods existence. I prayed again and again and got another shots during months until I realised I can control it through behaviour, my mood, exhaustion, isolation and so on and then I realised this is not about God or Jesus. It is about stimulation of my brain. Then I lost my faith.

[redgreen]

I’ve found that when trying to get someone to question their faith (rarely my goal, but every once in a while you’ll come across someone who wants you to challenge them) that the best question to ask is something along the lines of “don’t you think that making a point to gather as a community every week, listen to music you all like, discuss positive life lessons you’ve learned, commiserate about your problems, offer each other sympathy and help, and promise each other that at some point in the week when you’re alone you’re going to take a break from what you’re doing to think about them and what they’re going through and just take a moment to hope that everything works out for them and feel grateful for the good things in your own life would just inherently be a psychologically uplifting and emotionally fulfilling lifestyle even if you did it in the name of some other god or no god at all?” Comically, their response is usually an instinctive “no” but since it so self-evidently would be, it produces a level cognitive dissonance which I think is a thousand times more potent than the result of any logical debate would’ve been.

[LOwens-xfyo]

My mother is a Catholic and my father an atheist. My mother seemed overly concerned about what the neighbors thought, and was strict about who I spent time with and how I dressed, which seemed trivial to me in the face of God. My decadent father, who cared not a wit what other people thought of him, was on the other hand, made time to be kind and helpful to everyone, including strangers.
When I first heard the moral argument for God, I laughed. The idea that one needed God to be moral or ethical had been clearly dissuaded by the example of my parents.
Long live situational ethics!

[rjspiteri]

I forget who said it, but, "you can't logic someone out of a position they didn't logic themselves into." Edit: I am disavowing this statement from this point forward due to it being factually wrong.

[jellyfishicalinc]

As a previous Christian, I think you hit the nail on the head! I grew up raised on a heavy belief in kindness before all else. My mom in particular, who I greatly respect, has always been the sort of person that Christians aspire to be, so I had an incredible role model when growing up. But as I grew up I noticed that the behaviors that were so idolized didn't really align with Christianity and preachings like "being above the world and not in it" or just the general incompatibility of recognizing someone was headed towards hell but treating them with kindness. I just felt like that rang hollow, and it was that disconnect that allowed me to see other arguments

[niffwasau]

My mom was raised Lutheran and she has actively admitted that she believes because it makes her feel better about the world and it makes her have a community. She never end to church alone, so she never went to church often. She bases her belief on personal experience and on the fact that she feels better about everything with faith
I converted for emotional reasons and I de converted for intellectual and emotional reasons

[CarlosRodriguez-dhmm]

Drew, I mostly agree, but I feel a need to emphasize that some people are de-converted for purely logical reasons. I feel that I'm an example of that. I spent my life in a church/private school. I wanted to be in ministry. I studied apologetics. And believing my faith to be rational, I constantly sought out popular reasons for and against God. One of your videos was the first videos that sent me down a path of de-conversion. Then I found Alex O'Conner, Paulogia, and others.
Absolutely, Behavior and Belonging matter, and they're probably more important to most people. But some people are primarily motivated by belief and evidence. And grabbing the attention of that minority of people then affects their behavior in their communities so that hopefully more people are less encouraged toward superstitious thinking.
Drew, again I love the content and mostly agree. Thanks for what you do.

[blairweaver]

An anecdote that supports some of your arguments. When the pandemic hit, I lost my sense of belonging and stopped many of the behaviors with the quarantine and services no longer being in person. This is what started me down the road of deconstruction my Christian faith.

[BrandonsBookshelf]

I am sure you get comments like this every day, but I wanted to say thank you! I deconverted about three years ago. and you and Alex were huge influences during that time and helped me normalize what was happening to me. Just wanted you to know!

[Rmystixmarshall]

As someone who was a born again Christian, I never belonged in a Christian community. One time I went to a church for 3 months and no one ever spoke to me. I felt closer to God in a forest than in a community or building. I don't know why I never fitted. I am now a Pagan and have been for years. My turning point is that if there was such an almighty powerful entity, Children should NOT be dying of Cancer. I worship Nature - at least I can prove it exists.

[roeliethegoat]

This a very original idea for a video, and I completely agree with you. When I was an evangelical I didn't listen to apologists at all. It only became a hobby of mine after almost 10 years out of the faith. I know more about religion and theology now than I did when I was a Christian. I relied solely on my personal experience and the things I was taught when I was younger. So yes, I agree my faith and experiences came from the rituals I was taught in the first place.

[partyboi]

This is a really important point. Experts in cult or extremist group deprogramming seem to agree that rational argumentation alone is essentially useless; it's developing a relationship of trust with an outsider(s) previous to such conversations that's much more likely to pull someone out, i.e. creating "belonging" situations external to the silo.

[aubriem]

This video really opened my eyes. For quite a while, I couldn't figure out why so many Christians I know seem disinterested in thinking about whether their belief is logical or not. This video made me remember that, although I'd had my doubts for many years, what ultimately made me leave the faith was not actually intellectual arguments (although they eventually solidified my position as an atheist). What made me leave Christianity was being bisexual (something I tried and failed to change, which was shamed by my church) and the covid pandemic making me stay home from church for over a year. Try as I did to maintain my faith, feeling like an outcast in my own religion and living for a while without constantly having my faith externally reinforced was enough that finally, I gave in to the fact that my religion didn't actually make any sense to me.

[brettlemoine]

I've engaged in various debates about theology since starting an agnostic and atheist student group in college in the mid 90's. For me, I've never really expected to convince the person with whom I'm engaging in discussion. Instead, it's more motivated toward providing an inoculant against religion for any listening (or reading) who may not be aware of the criticisms of various arguments for god or the fallacies that are frequently used in their justifications. I agree that for most Christians, at least most of those that I've encountered, the foundation of their faith seems much more to be rooted in belonging than in the reasons for particular beliefs. But there are people, and more all the time, that are simply not engaged in the topic. And if they find themselves _only_ listening to believers providing reasons to believe, they could get pulled into a community they might avoid if they'd been provided with that inoculation in the counter arguments.

[somersetcace]

This was a really good one. I've reached that conclusion before that debating the existence of gods really only has meaning between theists and atheists because theists don't typically explore it unless challenged. I've yet to meet a theist who said "Well, I used to be an atheist, but then I heard the `Kalam Cosmological Argument` and *poof* I was a believer!"

[alwayslearningtech]

I was still a Christian when I started watching debates, and, watching Christians like William Lane Craig left me questioning why the evidence for Christianity was so bad. Debates have helped numerous people realise their beliefs aren't true. It might not be immediate but it definitely leaves an impact.

For me, learning about the brain and how experiences like the holy spirit and interacting with God were explained naturally, was probably the biggest blow to my beliefs.

[davidmorales]

This video surprisingly parallels my social psychology of cults class. We just went over peripheral and central processing, which explains how groups such as cults can convince people to join them rather quickly, using techniques such as fear, judgement day, the afterlife, and a sense of belonging to give the illusion that their decision needs to be immediate in order to instill panic and anxiety into potential members. Peripheral processing is the use of these techniques and loaded language, aka propaganda or buzz words, as to create a powerful emotion in a person. The longer a person dwells in a cult, the more their language is changed and the more dependent they become on the group. Isolation is casted as the leaders tell members that outsiders are dangerous or that trying to reason with them is impossible as they can't understand your logic, which we compared to a larger scale example which would be when government tell their people that no other country eats as well as they do, or lives as luxurious as they do.

Peripheral processing also has the intended effect known as "Doubling" where essentially a person is deprogrammed from themselves and reprogrammed into an obedient husk or a true believer, usually using thought cohesion or "Brainwashing", but this effect is very shallow and requires constant reinforcement, or else their members will begin to engage in critical thinking and revert back to their genuine selves. This is why when the pandemic hit, many religious people began to divert from religion, as they stopped regularly visiting church and gained moments of clarity, whuch in turn allowed them to exercise their actual selves. Similar events occur during moments of crisis' and acts of humility.

I'm not saying religions are cults, but what I am saying is that many religious people are simply religious because that's how they were brought up, usually forced to act a certain way by domineering parents who pressured their own religion onto their children, which created said "doubling" effect. Thus, when said children grow up, they're more likely to leave the church during events such as a pandemic or when they move away because they've distanced themselves from people who were forcing them to be religious. Ofcourse said events can also have the opposite effect, people who have been doubled have two possible options when faced with opposition, either they begin to critically think or delve deeper into their religion, doubling down, which can lead the way for these people to obtain more radical views, especially if pressured by others.

[tbastdgagitw]

Been waiting for someone to talk about this. A personal experience trumps reasonable explanations. Understanding this improves conversations with believers. Good job