The Dark Triad: Dealing with Narcissists, Sociopaths, and other Toxic People | Being Well

@RickHanson and I unpack the "Dark Triad" of personality traits - narcissism, Machiavellianism, and sociopathy - and explore how these traits can affect everyday relationships. We dive into how individuals with these tendencies use charm and manipulation to control situations and people, and offer practical strategies for identifying these traits in others. You’ll learn how to set boundaries, protect yourself from manipulation, and develop a thoughtful, empathetic approach when navigating relationships with those who exhibit these challenging behaviors.

The episode also explores self-care in difficult dynamics, the ethical considerations in labeling others, and how to manage unavoidable interactions with people who display these traits. It’s essential listening for anyone who has encountered toxic behavior, and wants to learn how to deal with it more effectively.

Key Topics:
0:00 Introduction and disclaimers
3:40 The Dark Triad: Narcissism, Machiavellianism, and Sociopathy
7:30 Charisma, privilege, and why some people get away with antisocial behavior
16:05 Sensitivity to criticism, viewing people as means to ends, and other evidence
22:35 Being careful about labeling people
28:00 Developing awareness, and grieving reality
32:15 Boundaries and safety
37:15 Limiting the scope of the relationship
41:35 How to break through the “fuzz” in communication
48:50 Transference, and when it’s safe to confront people
54:50 Self-care in unavoidable situations
59:00 When you notice these tendencies in yourself
1:01:45 Recap

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I'm not a clinician, and what I say on this channel should not be taken as medical advice.

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[ForrestHanson]

Lot of comments about the 1-2% prevalence rate of Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) we cite in the episode. To give some more information, this is the number used by the American Psychology Association, which is based on a 2022 study:


While there are other numbers out there, most findings cluster between 1-2%. One review of five epidemiological studies in 2018 found that the median prevalence was 1.6%. Another study from 2010 found that the mean among 7 reasonably high-quality prevalence studies was 1.06%.


There are outliers. For example, one study based on the Wave 2 National Epidemiologic Survey on Alcohol and Related Conditions found rates as high as 6.2%. Others have gone even higher than that, though I'd recommend against over-inferring from outlier studies.


These are studies of prevalence rates in the general population, NOT the clinical population. Researchers are not dumb, they're aware that people with NPD tend to avoid treatment, and they attempt to correct for this by relying on other forms of information gathering. Even so, estimated rates of NPD in the clinical population tend to be much higher than in the general population (comorbidity is likely a significant contributor to this).

All that said, these numbers are fuzzy, vague, and imperfect. It’s hard to say with certainty how many people have any mental health issue, in part because we need to decide what we’re trying to measure. Egocentrism is present in NPD, but merely being egocentric, antisocial, or whatever else makes a person annoying to interact with is not necessarily enough to qualify for a formal diagnosis. Someone who hits “only” three of the nine criteria for a diagnosis of NPD might be frustrating, difficult, or even dangerous to be around...without technically being NPD. This is one of the many possible reasons a person might feel their experience is not well-captured by a prevalence rate of 1-2%. Other common possibilities include:

1. Your family of origin includes someone with heavy narcissistic traits/NPD. Our families and early experiences have an outsized impact on our lives, so even one bad apple can create plenty of problems.
2. You tend to be in environments that include a disproportionate number of people with narcissistic traits.
3. You tend to be attracted to people with narcissistic traits. This isn't something to be ashamed of - people with narcissistic traits are often very good at making themselves attractive!

[sallyh.]

I’ve never seen my ex shine more brightly as a totally fake character putting on a show, than he did in front of a therapist. Not only did she buy it, she seemed to be into him. He cornered me, took my cell phone, and threatened to kill me later that night. Also a narcissist is unlikely to go to a therapist, because there is nothing wrong with them. (In their mind) They would only go if absolutely desperate to reel you back in after serious incidents that should all be deal (relationship) breakers, and likely they’ll only go 1-2 times.
A narcissist is desperately insecure but cares desperately what people think about them. The resulting defence mechanisms are extremely damaging for those close to them. They CANNOT mentally handle being wrong but they do so many wrong things. So they will lie, blame, attack, escalate, deny clear proof, but never admit fault. If you are not for them, you’re against them in their eyes. Even if it has nothing to do with them. The terrifying thing is that it can take years to realize who you’ve gotten involved with, and they only reveal it a drop at a time, and every reveal is matched with equal campaigns of drawing you in, with commitment, proximity, financially, while simultaneously breaking you down so you lack the strength to leave and make a better victim, so it’s SO gradual, that before you know it you’re living in a prison of misery that it’s almost impossible to escape, or to make anyone else truly understand.

[jrsoundz]

I want to express my deep gratitude to you, Forest and Rick, for guiding me in my recovery. As a 38-year-old man, I spent most of my life confused and lost due to how I was mistreated by my parents—they controlled every aspect of my life. Since discovering your podcast, I’ve begun reading and learning about my trauma, and I’ve even started therapy. The journey ahead is long, but I’m grateful to finally be moving in the right direction.

[halliebirds]

I grew up in a great family with amazing parents who are always learning and growing and I still spent about 15 years attracting these types of people. We hear so much about people who wind up in these relationships because they’re familiar, but not as much about people who wind up here because they simply don’t have defenses against these types of people. My paradigm from childhood was “people are fallible but kind and they always learn and grow.” I’d say it that’s still my worldview just with some edits. 😂 Now it’s more like “people are always fallible and assholes often, but sometimes manage to learn and grow and I’ll wish them luck from afar.” LOL

[kirbycobain]

I feel it's important to mention that sometimes autistic communication patterns can be mistaken for narcissism. This is often a result of the double empathy problem; we (autistic people) may not respond in a way that allistic (non autistic) people understand as empathetic. One thing I heard here (and many other sources on this topic) is that if someone talks mostly about themselves and doesn't ask questions about you, that it could be a red flag for narcissism. It sounds straightforward, but in my experience (and many other) thats actually a common difference in communication style with autistic people. I have a tendency to mostly say things about myself, and expect the other person to follow up with something about themselves if they're interested in sharing. Most neurodivergent people I've talked to follow this pattern as well and it works for us, but it can make things awkward when talking to neurotypical people. It's not that I'm not interested, I just don't usually think to ask, that piece just doesn't come naturally to me and it can be difficult to remember to ask. I do hope people respond with something about themselves because I am genuinely interested, but I forget to give the right "cues"

[avakennedy]

Can you do a video on people who tend to be particularly vulnerable to narcissistic type people?

[cathycarr]

They are often gratified knowing they have offended or hurt you in some way. When you finally come out of denial that a person you trusted and thought genuinely cared, the truth is very painful and hard to accept. But, like you said, when the mask is removed, there is no going back. Be gentle with yourself. Freedom is on the other side of grief.

[SheilaKaneDecoy]

I know how “out there” this must sound…. But Dr. Rick just comes across as so kind and safe.
After watching the news and seeing the constant hostility on social media, it’s just so calming to come on here and watch you gentlemen 💛

[lindaelarde]

Forrest, you articulate the experience of interacting with a narcissistic type so perfectly...especially the playbook strategies like " if you're really my friend... " Ugh...so manipulative and the more sensitive of us are more vulnerable because we are highly empathetic.

[lindaelarde]

Excellent discussion.. great insights. At the end of the day, we're all just imperfect humans. Humility and appreciating one another as doing the best we can with what we have in each moment. It isn't easy being green, as my favorite wise Muppet Frog tells us! 😉🐸

[lisbethbird]

Rick I have " little things" too. "Not my puzzle to solve." " No judge, no grudge. " And yes, self differentiation. " I have a right to protect my own safety. "

[Pathfinder]

I wish this wasn’t posting publicly but alas. As a survivor, I hate putting my info out there but this is too important. First, thank you for acknowledging how flippantly these terms/labels are thrown around now. Nobody - and I mean nobody - has any idea how horrible dealing with these people are unless you’ve lived it. It is not just self-centeredness; it is literally that they are the only ones who matter and exist. You do not and you never will. Every single time you have the audacity to take up space, to state your needs, to mirror back to them their failure to treat you well, you will be met with whatever punishment they know will put you back in your place the best - ignoring you, cheating on you, convincing you that you’re insane, degrading you, etc. For the real lucky ones, we get to experience all of the above over the years. You will spend hours trying to get them to apologize, to remotely care about how their behavior affects you. By the end of the conversation, they will have you convinced you owe them an apology, instead. Up is down and down is up. The sky is green because they say it is. The only way to somewhat manage their horrible treatment is to stay as small, as quiet, and as submissive as humanly possible. To need and want for nothing but them and their needs and wants. You will fail, because you are a living human being with living human being thoughts, feelings, and needs. Only when you get to the place of realizing that the only way to keep them happy is for you to not be a living human being, do you realize the emergent situation you are in. It will be up to you and you alone to courageously decide that you deserve to live and there’s no shame in living with human needs. By the time we reach this point of needing to escape, we rarely have anyone left in our life to help. Never forget that there are DV help lines. It’s the most insidious, destructive abuse and many people struggle to survive. But, here we are, step by step, learning how to do that very thing. For anyone this resonates with, don’t give up. You deserve to take up space, to have needs, to be human.

[gfyourself]

Great topic. I wonder if its worth doing a deeper dive on work relationships from this triad perspective specifically - perhaps with a guest.

[Rose-gmmm]

Ahh! The ‘fuzz’ factor! Very inciteful… Thank you Forrest!

[andrearenee]

Glad to be here... Thank you. You mean like the 45th who is a full blown narcissist ...

[mel]

Would be interesting to see a guest who studies macro level societal psych...i find i have encountered alot more extremely self absorbed people in the workplace in the last 5 years...they genuinely dont care about consequences of their actions to others or the organization. Also in volunteering i do. Not diagnosed disorders but pretty extreme selfishness seems to be more socially acceptable currently. The Hyper individual culture and social media has helped to foster this....

[jb-zeyh]

Wish I knew this 5 years ago. I didn’t even realize my own father was a malignant narcissist and I have a masters in psychology. We didn’t discuss this or even talk about this 13 years ago in grad school. I ended up being fooled by a covert narcissistic person. We share a child and it’s been one of the worst experiences ( besides my own father). I’ve met about 4 narcissists in my life. It’s hard to tell.

[Theowlhawk]

It's when people pretend to have decent human empathy, compassion, yet, full of envy, hate and malicious intent! And you don't see them coming! The shock, the aftermath of harm, of trauma these people cause!

[PerfectPetProductions]

Npd is much more common than what you suggest here. 20% minium. Doctors and actors it's over 50%.

[FlorenceLunsford-sknj]

Seeking recovery is good but it's also hard sometimes too