Justification according to Paul A Response to Jordan B. Cooper - Robert C. Koons & Matthew J. Thomas

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[JohnDeRosa]

Love seeing Rob with a headset; excited to hear this conversation!

[DrJordanBCooper]

At around 34:00, I have absolutely no clue where Dr. Koons got the idea from that I believe the Roman view is the result of nominalism, and that the Lutheran approach is *the* Patristic one. That is very much opposed to what I have said/written in numerous places.

[irememberyou]

Brought in matthew thomas... what a boss

[Stormlight]

Fantastic discussion, gentlemen! One thing I found very interesting among Dr. Cooper's objections to the Council of Trent was that there was more than one position being debated at the time. It seems to me that the nature of the magisterium is a spot that Dr. Cooper could strengthen his understanding of the Catholic Church substantially on.

Trent was called to settle the charges of the Reformers which required definitions on topics the church hadn't ever needed to define before. The fact there was a dispute at the Council is the very reason we need a magisterium and the authority of the Catholic Church. It is there to make a definitive decision that we know we can trust to be true because it is being guided by the Holy Spirit. Without this authority, we have no way to ever know who is right in these debates. We all point to the same scriptures and come to different conclusions.

Furthermore, it seems very important to me that one of the key positions that Trent ended up on, viz. the idea of infused sanctifying grace as the formal cause of our justification, is what is most in line with the traditions of the Church. Luther's position of the extrinsic imputation of Christ's very own righteousness, was a complete novelty to the Reformation, as can be seen here by one of the most prominent modern day scholars, Alister McGrath, on the historical development of the doctrine justification in the Christianity:

"The point at issue is a little difficult to explain. It centers on the question of the location of justifying righteousness. Both Augustine and Luther are agreed that God graciously gives sinful humans a righteousness which justifies them. But where is that righteousness located? Augustine argued that it was to be found within believers; Luther insisted that it remained outside believers. That is, for Augustine, the righteousness in question is internal; for Luther, it is external.

In Augustine’s view, God bestows justifying righteousness upon the sinner in such a way that it becomes part of his or her person. As a result, this righteousness, although originating outside the sinner, becomes part of him or her. In Luther’s view, by contrast, the righteousness in question remains outside the sinner: it is an “alien righteousness” (iustitia aliena). God treats, or “reckons, ” this righteousness as if it is part of the sinner’s person. In his lectures on Romans of 1515–16, Luther developed the idea of the “alien righteousness of Christ, ” imputed – not imparted – to the believer by faith, as the grounds of justification."

*McGrath, Alister. Reformation Thought: An Introduction, 4th ed. p 125-126*

"Despite the astonishing theological diversity of the late medieval period, a consensus relating to the nature of justification was maintained throughout …. It continued to be understood as the process by which a man is made righteous …. The essential feature of the Reformation doctrine of justification is that a deliberate and systematic distinction is made between justification and regeneration … where none had been acknowledged before in the history of the Christian doctrine. A fundamental discontinuity was introduced into the western theological tradition where none had ever existed, or ever been contemplated, before. The Reformation understanding of the nature of justification [as imputation] must therefore be regarded as a genuine theological novum."

*Alister McGrath - Iustitia Dei: A History of the Christian Doctrine of Justification. Vol. I. Pg. 186*

It seems to me that Luther, himself, was even aware of the novelty of some of his positions, but for some reason that wasn't a problem for him or many of his followers (as quoted by Dr. Thomas towards the end of the video):

"Of this difference between the Law and the Gospel nothing can be discovered in the writings of the monks or scholastics, nor for that matter in the writings of the ancient fathers. Augustine understood the difference somewhat. Jerome and others knew nothing of it. The silence in the Church concerning the difference between the Law and the Gospel has resulted in untold harm. Unless a sharp distinction is maintained between the purpose and function of the Law and the Gospel, the Christian doctrine cannot be kept free from error."

**Luther, Matin. Commentary on the Epistle to the Galatians. Chatper 3, v. 19. (1535).

I also highly recommend the book "Engrafted into Christ" by Dr. Christopher Malloy that Dr. Koons mentions to anyone exploring the historical justification debate between Lutherans and Catholics. It was highly influential on my own conversion to the Catholic Church from the LCMS Lutheran Church. This book argues that the Joint Declaration on Justification (1999) was not an accurate portrayal of either the Lutheran or Catholic positions on justification.This book claims (and I now agree) that the crux of the difference between the two views is over what both sides see is the formal cause of justification: is it the imputation of Christ’s righteousness extra nos (Lutherans) or is it the infusion of sanctifying grace into the believer (Catholics)? Dr. Malloy makes his case by surveying the two side’s positions on justification throughout history, including the failed reconciliation attempts at the Diet of Regensburg, the Council of Trent, modern Lutheran views, and finally a critique of the Joint Declaration. This was one of the most important books for solidifying my views that the Catholic Church is actually right about justification and does not teach any form of “works righteousness” or Pelagianism. It seems to me that Dr. Malloy does a very good job potraying Lutheran ideas fairly and heavily cites directly from the Lutheran Confessions.

God bless!

[FTWbiology]

Luther outright states in his famous 1535 Galatians commentary that his view on law/gospel and justification are completely unknown to any church fathers. He goes as far to say Jerome would condemn him for his views.

[marknovetske]

Love your podcasts....some of the best high quality theological discussions on u tube.

[patriciaalvarado]

Muchas gracias por evangelizar que Dios los bendiga grandemente 🙏

[juanmanuelgonzalez]

Hi Suan, thank you for your amazing work. As a Marketing Manager I’d like to encourage you to don’t stop posting on Podcasts as well. Your content is really good and helps a lot of people, and over time your channel is very likely gonna grow a lot. That’s why I think you should keep following these boring structures of Marketing. God bless you bro!

[byronlewis]

Really found this helpful in seeing the wider views of Justification- and as 'always' I am so glad and blessed I have come into the Catholic Faith and am learning the truth of Justification through the Church established by Christ and leaving behind the discordant, error filled and contrary views of Protestants.

[anthonyjohn]

Fantastic discussion between dedicated and intelligent men.

[Jonathynn]

You should have a Thomist and Molinist and maybe a third party come on and talk about grace, freedom of the will, and predestination.

[AlexADalton]

Woah this was good. Koons and Thomas are so thorough. I can't help but feel the Reformation never should've happened if justification was the key issue. It seems extremely nitpicky to quibble over this issue and I think I'm more in line with the view that justification is more broad and inclusive of transformation, and not some isolated component of salvation, even if there's a forensic aspect.

[zarnoffa]

Jordan B. Cooper puts on a clinic in the debate posted later on this channel. People should check it out.

[LynchMobster]

I have heard that Luther was an occasionalist. If that is the case, could it be that a middle position between the transformative view of grace and the wholly extrinsic view of grace often attributed to Luther is that Luther held something like a transformative occasionalist view of grace? That would mean that God declares a person to be righteous, and so the person really is righteous (not just snow covered dung). However, given the occasionalist ontology, to be “transformed” really means to be nothing more than declared righteous. Since occasionalist deny secondary causality, it will often seem that it is wholly extrinsic (because it basically is), but in common parlance (given that ontology) it would be reasonable to say that grace is really transformative just as it would be reasonable to say that a fire really heats a pot. However on the occasionalist framework, what “the fire really heats the pot” means is more like “God heats the pot on the occasion that fire is near the pot”. So saying grace is transformative is like saying “a God makes a person righteous on the occasion that he has an act of sanctification (such as faith)”. And thus this can get really muddled because Luther is lacking the robust secondary causality that comes from a Neo-Platonic and Scholastic metaphysical worldview.

I would love to hear your comments. If I am way off base, please save me as I am certainly no Luther scholar.

[barry.anderberg]

Doesn't the fact that God writes his laws on the hearts of his people support the protestant/reformed view that works are the natural outworking of justification, rather than a prerequisite for it?

[ishiftfocus]

Jesus Christ’s Death, Burial, and Resurrection Offers Forgiveness and Justification To All Men By Grace Through Faith Alone.