My Challenge to Atheists

Just answer the question, If you can, I am kinda sick of people swearing at me... BTW the song is Good Riddance (Time of your life) By Green Day

[misternu]

@nightrise73 I already conceded the proof portion of the argument, don't beat a dead horse.

People who protect each other from murderers survive longer than people who turn a blind eye. Nobody "knows" that it is wrong, some merely instinctively feel it. In fact, many people don't naturally have these feelings (did god skip them?), and we are forced to incarcerate them to maintain order. Conscience thrives in our society because it helps you survive to care about others.

[JesusWasAnAsshole]

@nightrise73, I agree 100%. This is my point. An intelligent social species such as humans, develops these traits (or a conscience) through evolution - not because some book told them right from wrong, like they are nimwits.

There are still some communities in the world (a huge number 50 years ago) that have never heard of the bible. Yet, they still refrain from killing and robbing one another.

[vantooner]

Let me start off with my morals. They came from my parents and the culture I grew up in. This is where all of human morals come from. It is explained very well by a program called The Nature of Things: Babies: Born to be Good. It states that as we grow up there is a higher effect on how we perceive the world from our parents and culture than anything else. But we are all born basically with good intentions and quickly learn right from wrong. The effects in our lives shape that right and wrong.

[misternu]

@nightrise73 In answer to the first question, yes. Something other than the innate gave it to us, society did. That was what I was trying to point out. Society creates morality, some people lack the genetic makeup to receive it, and others are mistreated and develop badly. Genetics can have a major negative effect on a persons ability to conform, and development (a persons childhood, environment) can also be botched. 47% of male prisoners have ASPD, for whom murder and theft don't feel wrong.

[dandaintac]

(cont)...we can develop our morality further through reason, by understanding what is harmful and what is good for us and our fellow humans.
However, religion can warp our innate sense of morality, but telling us it's okay to harm people. Like when god tells us to stone unbelievers to death, or kill witches. Thanks for asking.

[dandaintac]

It's not always easy to tell right from wrong, but we don't need god to tell us. It's part of growing up. At a certain point you find you don't need your mother and father to tell you--you can figure it out for yourself. It's easy in some cases. You don't need anyone to tell you it's wrong to hurt someone, because you wouldn't want anyone to hurt you. So you can emphasize. If we were unable to do this, we would have gone extinct long ago. It's innate, and...(cont)

[SwagMcFresh]

@nightrise73 Actually, the planets are made of the same composition on one level, atoms. The reason that there are different elemental compositions, which is what you seem to be talking about, is because of the sporadic behavior of energized particles, as I said. When you heat free floating substances up, the particles of which they consist jump all over the place, and, in cases of an atomic level with supernova-esque energy, combine with the result of numerous elements of ammounts

[horseburger]

@68jaromirjagr
"animals with such poor mental capacity aren't the best example of this"

Being fitter then other shrill is not necessarily down to mental capacity. It may well be they were bigger and stronger then the other shrill and therefore had an advantage in getting to safety before the others.

[misternu]

@nightrise73 It wouldn't let me post links, here are titles:

A psychology book from the 80s about morality and social behavior:
The development of social knowledge: morality and convention
By Elliot Turiel

A study in chimps about kin selection and its relation to cooperation:
Kin selection, social structure, gene flow, and the evolution of chimpanzees
PA Morin, JJ Moore, etc

Most atheists believe something like: (kin selection)->(social behavior)->(society hones itself)->(morality).

[TheTheries]

@nightrise73 Lo, a day shall come for the Lord when the spoils shall be divided in your midst. And I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle: the city shall be taken, houses plundered, women ravished; half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be removed from the city. (Zechariah 14:1-2 NAB)

[misternu]

@nightrise73 A lot of philosophers and scientists have their own opinions about where morality began. Some of them are christians, some of them aren't. Some of them say it came from god, some of them don't (these aren't necessarily the same groupings).

You don't have to be convinced by the story of morality that atheists believe in, just acknowledge that we *have* a story, and that we aren't just sitting here going "whuh? I never thought of that!"

My next post will contain some links

[JesusWasAnAsshole]

@nightrise73, The monks in Tibet belong to one of the most peaceful, loving cultures in the world. Yet, they have no use for a bible, jesus, or a ridiculous '10 Commandment' story.

[kainedamo]

@nightrise73 Your argument assumes design.

Physics, evolution, chaos theory are sufficient to explain how our world came to be the way it is.

[kainedamo]

@nightrise73 The materials a painter uses to paint already exist. So, God created those materials. But from what? From nothing? That's somewhat of a paradox.

[misternu]

@nightrise73 Even then you know it is wrong. You know that a child cursing their parents either isn't or shouldn't be an irredeemable sin. OT isn't just bad for its laws, but for its description of the lawgiver. Which meaning of "dead" do you think applied to the thousands of children that god ordered the slaughter of? Not to mention any adult innocents that lived in those communities. The firstborn of every creature of Egypt? While god was hardening the pharaohs heart? What kind of dead was it?

[SwagMcFresh]

God isn't required for morality. Humans get their morality through empathy and logic. Non-sociopathic humans have innate emotional recognition of the suffering of others, and work to avoid said emotional recognition. When someone else is sad, you feel sad too. We've evolved to have this innate desire to preserve our species. Evolutionary biology explains the whole process quite easily, and with evidencial backing. Nowhere, in this issue, is an invisible sky man required for government.

[kainedamo]

@nightrise73 You're talking about short term gain and are not thinking about the long term consequences of doing these things.

[kainedamo]

@nightrise73 What is this substantial proof?

[kainedamo]

@nightrise73 SO many problems with this argument. Your argument is similar to the watchmaker analogy. Okay, so here is one problem with the argument. A painting has a painter, and a watch has a watchmaker, a shoe has a shoemaker. So, according your analogy, the sun has a sunmaker, life has a lifemaker, water has a watermaker, and so on. Nothing in your analogy shows that there is one single creator.

[kainedamo]

@nightrise73 You're completely misunderstanding my argument. Don't you think that killing ones own parents would be inconsistent with the arguments for morality I have made? How would killing ones own parents promote well being and happiness? How would it minimize unnecessary suffering and harm?

You have not answered a question of mine.

If, hypothetically, it could be proven that God does not exist, would you then go out and murder and steal?