Answering Eastern Orthodoxy on Papal Infallibility

Answering Eastern Orthodoxy on Papal Infallibility

Michael Lofton responds to Fr. Andrew Stephen Damick's objections against papal infallibility in his book Orthodoxy and Heterodoxy.

00:00 Introduction
04:00 There is no infallible list of infallible papal teachings
10:45 Conditions for papal infallibility
15:40 St. Peter and papal infallibility in Scripture
19:40 Papal infallibility in the ecumenical councils?
30:00 Pope Honorius and papal infallibility
40:20 Papal condemnation of the filioque in the creed?
44:00 Papal infallibility makes councils useless?
47:44 Psychoanalyzing Catholics on papal infallibility
54:04 Deposing heretical popes?
56:01 The Orthodox have no problems deposing patriarchs?

#orthodox #easternorthodoxy #orthodoxy #catholic #pope #theology #debate
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Disclaimer: Any view expressed by a host, contributor or guest is not necessarily reflective of the views of other hosts, contributors or guests.

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[adambenedict]

An EO layperson here. First, thank you, Michael, for your careful and methodical treatment on this subject. I really appreciate how you dug into the content of the sixth ecumenical council! Your presentation reminds me that each of us needs to be as emotionally and intellectually honest as we can be - especially when it comes to dealing with these weighty matters between Rome and Eastern Orthodoxy. Your analysis serves as a strong reminder to be as thorough, thoughtful, and sober as possible when addressing these subjects.

[jesseshooter]

Whether you're Catholic or Orthodox, I think we can all agree that Lord of Spirits is a great podcast.

[SaintCharbelMiracleworker]

Moses was infallible when he announced doctrine from the Seat of Moses. Jesus refers to this seat when He tells His Apostles to listen to the priests because they sit. in the Seat of Moses. The Israelites ask Moses about God. Moses settles disputes between the people; he is their judge (he exercises authority, Ex18 verses 15-16). He teaches them about God and His statutes (he is teacher). He was exhausted from judging/teaching the Israelites all day as it says in Exodus 18:13 he chooses 70 elders to assist him in his leadership role.

[masterchief]

Fr Damick seems to be a good charitable EO priest but still he doesn’t seem to engage Catholic claims with the necessary depth. I’m only saying this because recent converts to EO tend to read their own material and repeat some of that stuff “ad nauseam” as if they were some kind of mantra, assuming and asserting their position in opposition to the Catholic one, which - not surprisingly - they also simply assume and assert.

Once interacting with him at “Gospel Simplicity” YT channel (some time ago) he said the role of the Bishop of Rome could be no different for Eastern Orthodoxy than the one played by Pope St Gregory the Great’s teachings. And when I used some of the proofs that Pope St Gregory the Great could never be an Eastern Orthodox, proving his Catholicity (in a very accurate sense of the term) was just too obvious, I got polite yet unsatisfactory answers. He didn’t actually use these sentences but it’s always something around the “Three Petrine Sees” or “a universal Bishop is the precursor of the Antichrist”, proving that EO academics and apologetics converge to be more or less self-referential (= one of their sources using another of their sources but barely primary ones, in real depth and context) and somewhat shallow to my taste. Good show here, Michael!

[lordhonksworth]

I listen to Fr Andrew Stephen Damick's various podcasts on Ancient Faith and really enjoy them, they're absolutely fascinating. In fact this is where I think the issue is. While he's talking about the symbolism of Tolkien or the Apocalypse of Pseudo-Methodius, Catholics come across like a bunch of joyless rule-followers, endlessly complaining about Pope Francis or having tedious 3 hour debates on obscure points of doctrine. Indeed, I think a lot of wrangling over the papacy by a lot of Evangelical Protestant converts to EO is just them rationalising the fact that they find nothing compelling in Western Catholicism (and I say this as a Catholic myself).

[alessandrovolta]

Which beautiful Church are the images of the intro from?

[simplydanny]

Okay the Honorius final possible explanation I feel works, not speaking in his universal capacity and also not defining anything. I felt this one was hard to defend but that final possibility feels plausible.

[Vitaly-fk]

Question to Eastern (Byzantine/Melkite) Catholics: Is it true that you accept only the first seven Ecumenical Councils? Because there are some youtubers, who use this argument as a proof for “fake unity”

[Gruenders]

What’s the Catholic response to the fact that papal infallibility is only applicable when the bishop of Rome is defining doctrine universally, not when acting as bishop of the diocese of Rome or Patriarch of the West, and thus he could bind the Roman church or entirety of the West to heresy under the limited scope of infallibility? Would not the Orthodox churches be obliged to sever communion with Rome in these situations where Rome/the West is heretical?

At some point Michael blocked me - I guess I posted something jerky lol but if anyone has any input, I’d be interested. Thanks!

[brettcopeland]

You have well-established the glaring weaknesses of Andrew Stephen Damick's scholarship on this topic, and, probably, on other topics as well. However, if you wish to grapple with both Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism on the issue of the papal office, it is expedient to confront and respond to every page of ABBÉ GUETTÉE 's most important book THE PAPACY: ITS HISTORIC ORIGIN AND PRIMITIVE RELATIONS WITH THE EASTERN CHURCHES (New York: Minos Publishing, 1866). Otherwise, you will find yourself dealing only cursorily with this grand obstacle to union between the EOCs and the RCC. After dealing with and addressing all the information provided in this book of Abbé Guettée, you will be equipped to have an intelligent conversation with Seraphim Hamilton. So be it. Amen.

[qman]

It sounds like both sides likely read their presuppositions into this matter

[codyalacarte]

I am a huge fan of Fr. Andrew’s work with AFR especially Lord of Spirits…. but his apologetic contra Catholicism is somewhat weak sauce regurgitated protestant strawman arguments. I don’t think he actually understands Catholic arguments. I still enjoy his other works though.

[ChristianSacra]

It it just me or is that Taylor Marshall with a beard?