Are humans wired for conflict? Lord of the Flies vs. Charles Darwin | Rutger Bregman | Big Think

Are humans wired for conflict? Lord of the Flies vs. Charles Darwin
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The iconic novel "Lord of the Flies" paints a picture of human beings as naturally selfish and prone to conflict, but that is not the most accurate depiction of humanity, argues historian Rutger Bregman.

Bregman shares a true story from his research about a group of Tongan students who survived on an island together for 15 months in 1965, not through brutal alliances, but by working together and forming a functional community.

Darwin's observation of domestication syndrome is apparent in humans, argues Bregman; our evolution into friendlier animals can be seen in our biological features and responses. Evolutionarily speaking, being "soft" is actually very smart, and we evolved to cooperate with one another for mutual gain.
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RUTGER BREHMAN:

Rutger Bregman is a historian and author. He has published five books on history, philosophy, and economics. His books Humankind (2020) and Utopia for Realists (2017) were both New York Times bestsellers and have been translated in more than 40 languages. Bregman has twice been nominated for the prestigious European Press Prize for his work at The Correspondent. He lives in Holland.

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TRANSCRIPT:

RUTGER BREGMAN: One of the most famous examples of this theory that people are fundamentally selfish in literature is the book "Lord of the Flies" by William Golding. So many people have read it, right? Millions of kids around the globe were basically forced to read it in school. I read it when I was 16 years old, or 17, and I remember feeling quite depressed and cynical afterwards, and thinking, "Well, no more Harry Potter for me." But it was while I was researching this book that I thought hmm, has it ever happened that real kids shipwrecked on a real island, and how would they behave if something like that would happen? And so I went on this journey that started on an obscure blog where someone wrote that this actually happened near Tonga in the '60s. Tonga is an island group in the Pacific Ocean, and yeah, after a couple of months, I managed to track them down. So I found a guy named Peter Warner, who is an Australian captain, who was fishing the vicinity of an island called 'Ata, a small island, basically a rock that sticks out of the ocean in 1966, when suddenly he heard screaming, and he was looking through his binoculars and he saw these six kids, long hair, pretty wild appearance. You know, what happens if you live on an island for a long time. Then these kids came and said, 'You know what? We're part of this school in Tonga, we've been living here for 15 months. Can you bring us home?' Now, Peter didn't believe it, so he called with the school and they said yeah, actually funerals have already been held. These are the real kids.

So I spoke to Peter, the captain, and he put me in contact with his best friend, Mano Totau, who's one of the original "Lord of the Flies" kids. And so 50 years had passed since then, but they could still describe to me in vivid detail what happened and how these kids survived on this island for 15 months. Well, by working together, by cooperating. So they worked in teams of two. Two to be on the lookout, two to tend to the fire, two to tend to the garden. And yeah, sometimes they did end up in fights. So then one of the boys would go to one side of the island, the other would go to the other side of the island, would cool off a little bit, come back and say sorry. You know, that's how they kept going for months. So it wasn't easy, but they made it. And I think that can give us hope.

And the thing is if it would be a Hollywood story, a Hollywood movie, then people would say, well, this is very naive. That's not how kids would behave. It's very sentimental. But it's the real "Lord of the Flies." The real "Lord of the Flies" is a story of friendship, of hope, of working together. It's pretty much the opposite of what we've always heard. Now, I'm not saying it's a scientific experiment. It's obviously just an anecdote, but we humans tend to become the stories that we tell ourselves. And for decades, we've been telling ourselves this pretty cynical story of kids turning on one another. And I mean, what are kids supposed to learn from that? It's not a very happy message, is it? So I think that whenever any teacher says to the kids, well, you need to read...

[bigthink]

Do you think that humans are wired for conflict?

[CanalPSG]

On Wikipedia, there are splendid articles on the 1860s shipwrecks of the "Grafton (ship)" and the "Invercauld (ship)." Both ships landed on the Auckland Islands; an archipelago south of New Zealand, with harsh conditions.

The five crew members of the Grafton worked together, built their own hut, furniture, took Bible class, played games, took care of their food and brew their own beer. In the end they built a boat to escape the island: they all survived.

The crew members of the Invercauld were disorganized, selfish, and resorted to cannibalism. Only three out of twenty-five survived.

Conclusion: things can be both as grim as in "Lord of the Flies" AND as hopeful as what happens to the group of Tongan students. One is not more real than the other.

[zerge]

I think this is a simplistic view. Sure, put only 6 boys on an island, and they will collaborate. Put 300, and add girls into the mix, and they will divide into several tribes, who will soon start fighting for territory and resources.

[Dezhavu]

The missing component in this conclusion is culture. In the "Lord of the Flies, " the shipwrecked students were English, and socialized toward competitiveness rather than cooperation. There are a number of other cultural traits that would make the difference between a bad or a good ending.

[truthbetold]

I'm glad future Pewdiepie traveled back in time to give us this important info.

[farzadjahanfard]

I just want to sit back relax and watch aliens come and finish us.

[yoppindia]

Humans are the kindest as well as cruelest animals, in short, two sides of same coin.

[CTON]

Civilization is not equally embedded in everyone, therefore science based education is important.

[akkhan]

Well the tonga students survived because their Self interest could only be fulfilled through cooperation and friendliness.They were not cooperating out of sympathy for each

[BoundyMan]

We just need to look at schools and we can see the true nature of children, since their parents aren't around. They form friendships and rivalries on their own both intentionally and unintentionally.

[importantname]

It is a Race - some win with teamwork, some win violence, some dont win. As a species our greatest strength is how we use collective strength and intelligence.

[NetherPrime]

we aren't wired ONLY for conflict but it is a part of us.

[iforget]

I know i don't like conflict i run away.

[Yamaazaka]

If spoiled rich kids and sheltered 1st world ppl don't have any conflict.. They'll make it.

[balazsadorjani]

Yes, we're wired to conflict. We're very friendly and caring towards ppl IN OUR GROUP. But towards outsiders, we're just brutal. That's the very same survivor instinct. That's why the kids survived. They were one group. Group size was small enough. I'd bet that the scenario would have turned out to be drammatically different, if there were more kids. Like 20-ish. As soon as two factions emerge, hell breaks loose. That's us. Humans.

[m_jackson]

I was hoping for science and information, based on natural selection, and got a fluffy pep talk.

[huzaifa]

Selfishness is a short term strategy, longterm strategy in order to progress grow and build something big we need people, corporation love respect .

[AbleBuilders]

Violence begets violence, hate begets hate, trust begets trust.

[josephkitchen]

Yes. Humans are intrinsically divisive. We step up an “us vs them” mentally. We are a tribal species, it’s how we evolved.

[Xenosaurian]

This is riddled with issues, particularly with the assumptions of an evolutionary timescale and brutish origins.