Are Mormons (and Protestants) Right About the 'Great Apostasy?'

The single BIGGEST doctrine to know for Catholic / LDS discussions is the so-called "Great Apostasy." If LDS are right about it, it disproves the Catholic Church. But if Catholics are right about it, it disproves the LDS church. So what does Scripture and history say: did the Church founded by Jesus Christ really go into apostasy right away?

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[Isaac_Hess]

As a former Mormon (now Catholic), well done! This was a very good episode, and I think you did a very good job charitably, and accurately, stating the LDS position. Many current Latter-day Saints recognize these issues, and there is a new theological movement in the faith to strongly downplay the Great Apostasy narrative in favor of a sort of pluralism, where the restoration wasn't so much a response to total apostasy, but was God's desire to bring "new light and truth" to the earth through Joseph Smith. (Needless to say, this is utter revisionist history, and as you point out the Great Apostasy was intimately tied to the earliest moments of Mormonism.)

I'd also like to point out a subtle nuance with how Mormons use the word "Priesthood." Catholics (and most people) use it as you did — the "state of being or acting as priest." Mormons use it in a much more intangible way — it is the _authority_ to act in God's name. Sort of like how a properly deputized police officer has authority to act in the name of the state, whereas someone pretending to be a police officer does not — even if they are both "acting as a police officer." So when you claim that the priesthood was never lost because "we have an unbroken line of priests, " that will not resonate much with a Latter-day Saint. Because for them, what was lost was this intangible _authority_, which can be withdrawn by God even if people are continuing to _act_ in the priestly office. (Imagine a police officer is fired by the department, but he retains his uniform, badge, and gun; he isn't _really_ a police officer anymore, but externally he could sure look like one.)

[bradleytarr]

I would chat with JW, SDA, or LDS, Missionaries, for hours, sharing my Catholicism and allowing them to state their case. But I live with my Mom, and she refuses to allow them in our Apartment.

[orbeuniversity]

Introduction
1:36 Step-1: Establish the stakes.
1:54 The Catholic Church Claim, in a Nutshell
2:41 The LDS Claim, in a nutshell
13:55 The Stakes
15:15 Step-2: Distinguish between personal from universal apostasy.
25:45 Step-3: Establish that the early Church was the Catholic Church.
32:03 Four points of agreement.
33:18 Step-4: Did the apostles fail?
36:35 The Kingdom Parables.
41:56 Step-5: What happened to prophecy, then?
57:05 Step-6: Be ready for the standard LDS proof-text: Amos 8 : 11-12
1:08:34 Step-7: Does Daniel 2 foretell Jesus Christ or Joseph Smith?
1:16:31 Step-8 (Final): Did Jesus Preserve His Church From Apostasy?

[sanoroo]

Great episode. Thank you. I was received into the Roman Catholic Church in 2014. I was raised in the churches of Christ, which grew out of the Restoration (Stone–Campbell) Movement. I was taught by the churches of Christ that an apostasy occurred quite quickly following the death of the Apostles. I believe Stone and Campbell were contemporaries of Joseph Smith. Perhaps you can consider a Shameless Popery Podcast on churches of Christ history and theology.

[JoshN]

Really looking forward to this one! I had a conversation with some LDS missionaries this Monday and followed up the brief conversation with a text outlining why I have doubts about the Great Apostasy. I can’t wait to see if my response lines up at all with Joe’s! They said they will look into my concerns and we will get together in person to discuss them. :)

[JohnBoyX]

So good. Matt Fradd is looking for someone to debate a Mormon apologist on his channel. I elect you.

[SUPERHEAVYBOOSTER]

Joe this was a really fantastic episode. Thank you so much. A friend of mine has gone from listening to one of your podcasts to now going to weekly RCIA sessions and he even now sends me your new episodes.

[tonyl]

When you realize that Mormonism makes Joseph Smith out to be a better Church builder/founder than Jesus Christ, it makes sense that Mormonism had to downgrade Jesus and elevate man in their theology.

[ArchangelIcon]

Thanks for those excellent two talks on Mormons. Wonderfully researched and presented.
As an Eastern Orthodox Christian this is very helpful.
Where I am in a small town in the UK, Mormons don't (yet) exist, but there's a large presence and evangelism from Jehovah's Whitnesses. Maybe you could present a similar video on them?

[Bob_Oxnard-spgr]

Great job, Joe. The charitable approach you take is almost as good as your logic. There are millions of kind, well-intentioned, and moral Mormons and Protestants, so it’s good to address these issues in a constructive way. That said, the notion that Christ founded a church that failed isn’t logical. He can make the universe but can’t make a non-failing church?
And the Bible is the unfailing word of God, but it was put together by a church that failed? (This point will resonate with people who study when, how, and by whom the Bible was put together - and who determined what books go in the Bible, what books don’t.)

If the apostles and the people who knew them couldn’t get Christianity right despite being direct witnesses of Christ or direct recipients of the apostles teaching, what’s the chance that Martin Luther or Calvin got it right 16 centuries later? Or the chances that the latest mega church founded 5 years ago is getting it right?

People sin. Institutions have corruption. That has always been the case going back to Adam and Eve, and always will be the way it is. Human nature. That doesn’t mean the church Christ founded failed. In fact, look around today and look for that impeccable, unblemished church on the hill, among the thousands of post-reformation churches. Any luck?

Thanks again.

[codenametemplar]

Just about to watch it, but I'm gonna assume the quick answer is no 🤣

[Anthony-fkzu]

Joe please get your books, especially The Early Church was the Catholic Church, on Audible

[marenlatham]

As a former Mormon who converted to Catholicism, I cannot tell you how on the money you are with this line of reasoning. It's the most important claim of Mormonism and THE reason we always felt justified over Protestants. I always understood that it had to either be us or the Catholics, since a break off group can't have any authority. It either has to be the original church Christ founded, or a church restored by God. If you can show a Mormon that there never was a great apostasy...and that actually it's totally incoherent to think that Christ's bride would die, leaving Christ a widower, as you said, that would really stop an honest Mormon in their tracks. I can tell you that not a lot of detail was ever given to me about the early church. It just seemed like a murky time, covered in the mists of antiquity. It was absolutely shocking to me to discover how completely ignorant I was about the early church, and yet that is what the religion I was born into was based on. Bringing this into the light is incredibly powerful! Wonderful job and God bless you!

[hjvdodh]

Like the new setup, although I'd prefer if the mic was positioned so we could see your mouth talk!

[tonyl]

Very nice tie-in to the recent Sunday gospels about the parables of the Kingdom!

[JoshN]

Great episode! My only critique is that it is too short. 😂

[modernsaints]

Favorite podcast in the world!!! Great decision Joe❤

[JohnHenry-wm]

Thank you! Good work and explanations. Good man 👍📿🥰

[conovan]

Title is missing a "?"
I found myself waiting for thursday so I could watch your new episode, it is really my new favorite (:

[RealSeanithan]

Conspiracy theory: Kahan shows under the pronunciation "kaw-han". Kaw han. Scott Hahn. Coincidence? Yes.