Debate Teacher Reacts: James White vs. Trent Horn

This is what you wanted, folks! James White vs. Trent Horn debating the question: Can a Christian Lose Their Salvation? Who bested the other? Was it too close to call? Find out in this video!

[ImCeeJH]

I’ve always appreciated how even tho this is a little channel you take it seriously. Always a good background setting, sound quality is amazing. And you are always consistent in making more content. It’s the little things that matter.

[willbirney]

This might be my all time favorite theological debate. I’ve watched it multiple times and after each viewing I tend to think a different person won the debate. I theologically align with White, but man is Trent Horn sharp. This debate is as good as it gets. Amazing breakdown as usual!

[zelie]

Hello, I'm new! :)
When Trent agreed that it is possible for some to never fall away, isn't that consistent with the Catholic view? We could have a person in the state of grace who, by God's grace, are able to never fall away their whole life. We could also have people who are in a state of grace who either fall away and do not come back, or fall away and come back.

It is possible for someone to never fall from grace AND it is possible for a person in the state of grace to fall from grace and come back, or never come back. Saying that it is possible for some people to never fall (we say never lose their baptismal innocents) is not admitting that all people in a state of grace never fall.

[michaeldo]

So hyped to finally listen to this!!! Excited to hear a debater's perspective on this debate, regardless of whether you're Catholic or Protestant. It's important to continue dialogue in a respectfully way!

[Seethi_C]

I’ve watched this debate probably 5 times now, and something I just now thought of was that the gift of perseverance that Trent talked about is very different than the one Calvinists talk about.

In Trent’s view, someone can lose and regain their salvation multiple times, and ultimately die in a state of salvation. I think Trent would still consider this person to have been given the gift of perseverance.

[jonbrittain]

The topic is 'can a Christian lose their salvation'. If it's true that some can and some can't, the answer to that question is still yes.

[certifiedsadboi]

Why would horn conceding that some Christians can’t fall away be a major misstep if the question is if a Christian can lose their salvation ? Even if horn concedes that some elect Christians can’t fall away, all he has to do is prove that some Christians can and do fall away. Idk Maybe I’m missing something.

[Fassnight]

24:40 is the best part of the debate. It is always nice when the two debaters can share a laugh or friendly moment even in the midst of fire

[jonphinguyen]

Just found your channel. Amazing content. I can't even tell what you believe or biases you have in these debate reviews. Very professional and inspiring. God bless and keep it up!

[jpcchiang]

Thank you Nate for your ministry. I appreciate your ability to dissect the debate and articulate the basis of the argument. God bless you and your family.

[YovanypadillaJr]

I honestly would love to see Nate and Trent have a conversation so he can explain his position more.

[echomike]

"Some don't fall away" but some do, therefore salvation can be lost. The topic is "Can salvation be lost?", yes it can. I love your channel, very intellectually stimulating.

[thewolfes]

I just discovered this channel, and I'm not sure what your theology consists of but your videos seem very good and informative, and I really want you to review the Craig/White debate!

[MrMochafrapachinolatte]

This was awesome to watch. Thank you for your commentary and educational videos. Since I found you, I have been showing everybody your stuff.

[ronbravo]

Loved this video and the breakdown, it made me re-evaluate James White's performance in that I can admit he did better than I originally thought. However, I have to disagree with the final analysis because the debate wasn't just the cross. As was admitted, Horn did an amazing job laying out everything from the beginning. White did a good job as well, but I think Horn's was stronger because of the usage of non Catholic positions as you pointed out. As a non Catholic, I was quite surprised how Horn took this approach but thought it was brilliant. In the rebuttable periods James did not did provide a clear methodology by which to interpret the problem passage scriptures other than along already held theological perspectives. He said prescriptive vs descriptive but really did not provide a strong way to understand this as it comes off as "If it agrees with my position it's prescriptive, it does not, it's descriptive" which is self serving but does not help someone who does not share that perspective break down and interpret the text better. Horn did raise this issue a few times and I was wondering if he would have pushed more on this problem in the cross examination but did not. This issue is what gives a lot of weight to your point that interpreting these verses is not a simple cut and dry thing. The other issue I personally faulted White on, aside from things you pointed out in the cross, is that he kept resorting to denomination attacks / critiques, which seemed to be a weak place to start from. It would have been fine if the debate was along denomination lines but Horn established early on that Catholics are not the only ones to hold this position. White raised the same type of implication / concern to William Lane Craig accepting of Molanism because it was a Catholic doctrine. James seemed to imply Horn had a wrong position because of his Catholic background. However, what about the non Catholic who comes to the same conclusion. I agree with you that Horn took a huge blow in the beginning as I was having a hard time following him, but did notice the things you pointed out when I first watched the debate, but I do not think it was enough to declare him the loser because of the full debate. I would agree if the debate was only the cross examination. But you are the professional debater, not me, so you criticisms are by those professional standards which is why you changed my mind on so much. Thank you for this and I look forward to many of your future videos.

[BiblicalStudiesandReviews]

I can’t believe this channel doesn’t have 100k subscribers. Very good.

[Xenotypic]

It's been a while since I watched this debate, but if memory serves this is the only James White debate in which I questioned whether or not he won the debate. Trent Horn put up the best defense of Catholicism I've ever seen in this, although it still wasn't persuasive enough for me. Would love to see a rematch.

[TheCrusaderPub]

I say this with no snark intended, though people may read it that way:
Calvinists have a tendency to see the Augustinian/Thomist positions and conflate them with Calvin’s. This makes sense because Calvin was so inspired by them, especially Augustine. However, both Augustine and Aquinas were far more nuanced than Calvinism allows.

[jeremyhewitt]

This is a fantastic debate in debating from the scripture itself.

[rickbaker]

A better question for Trent would be:
So the reason that this person perseveres finally is because God gives him the grace he needs - you are saying he foreknows that person (a) is going to persevere, but they persevere because he gives them grace…so he foreknows that he is going to give them perseverance - aren’t you just saying he elects freely and decrees their salvation infallibly, just not in those words?