The problem with CLERICS and PALADINS - fantasy re-armed

In fantasy TTRPG games like Dungeons and Dragons (D&D) and Pathfinder we find character classes of Clerics and Paladins. Though they are different classes they have many similarities. Shad talks about their weapons, spells, their historical basis, similarities and differences.

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[r.a.m]

paladin cuts you down then thanks god, cleric thanks god then cut you down

[Seth]

05:00 - Blunt weapons for clerics. Because the writings are quite specific about killing but somewhat fuzzier on the subject of kneecaps.

[marcinzysko]

Thing with maces is that skeleton undead are the basic adversary for clerics. And dnd'wise, blunt weaponry is more effective against skeletons than stabbing weapons

[Kraleck]

D&D's Paladin was originally a rather limited sub-class of Fighter, gaining holy power and knightly prestige based on faithfulness to their oath while Clerics have been more along the lines of healers, priests, and exorcists. Because of that Paladins are now akin to Fighters that forego combat feats for a bag of divine tricks to keep the frontline moving and on their feet and all manner of unholy forces at-bay.

Clerics having to deal with hordes of undead (like skeletons) means they usually stick with something that's as good for breaking bones as the Cleric can mend them with magic. Not to mention that Disruption, a magical weapon ability designed for taking the un- out of the undead, was only eligible for bludgeoning weapons.

[geoffreyperrin]

In a game where fights happen all the time, if a class's identity is about non-violence, you are going to have a lot of people avoid the class or just agree to ignore that unless you can somehow make buffing allies or controlling the battlefield without doing harm as fun as actually blasting an enemy with a ray of holy light or running around with spirits that attack all you approach

[MrDUneven]

Paladin that gives vow of silence is always Christmas themed. He is silent knight, holy knight...

[JerehmiaBoaz]

The historical reason the clergy didn't use cutting or stabbing weapons in battle is because they made *a vow to not spill blood.* That's why bishop Odo of Bayeux is depicted using a wooden club on the Bayeux tapestry for instance.

[SCOmAP]

Admittedly, I didn't start playing D&D until after 5e came out, but I like the idea that there are a variety of classes that are very similar, save for one or two defining features. Wizards, Sorcerers, and Warlocks all cast arcane spells, but the difference is in HOW they go about acquiring their power, and that difference is then reflected in the game mechanics for each class. For Clerics and Paladins, the question isn't "what weapons can you use, " it's "In whom do you put your faith?" The Cleric is devoted to a deity, where the Paladin is devoted to an ideal.

The Cleric doesn't need to swear an oath or abide by rules and regulations. They simply need to act within the tenets of their chosen faith, channeling the power of their deity - and given the vast pantheon most fantasy settings share, those tenets can be quite varied. A Cleric of a merciful deity might heal the injured. A trickster deity might see the Cleric spread joy or chaos through practical jokes. An evil deity might lead the Cleric to slaughter civilians. A war deity might order the Cleric to battle. A peaceful deity might urge their Cleric to become a mediator. Clerics are full casters in 5e because they get a direct line to their source of power. They can still use weapons - many domains have martial weapon proficiency - but the Cleric isn't defined by the sword they wield, but the miracles they perform.

Where the cleric requires faith in a higher power, a Paladin requires faith in themselves. The paladin might follow a specific deity, but they might just as often embody the spirit of a civilization, or a force of nature. What matters is the oath they hold sacred. Think of someone like Steve Rogers. He admits he believes in a god, but he's certainly not a cleric. Captain America draws his strength from the fighting spirit of his country, and it is that indomitable force of will that ensures he "can do this all day". A good-aligned paladin might vow to defend a sacred grove from defilers or hunt down the necromancer that slaughtered his village before he can become a lich. An evil paladin might vow to wipe out every member of the family that betrayed him or see the halls of government burned down such that he might remake them in his own image. Paladins are half casters in 5e because regardless of whether or not they have a deity backing them up, their power comes from their own conviction, manifesting the divine spark from within in order to achieve wonders.

--

Also, I couldn't disagree more with your position that healing magic should be restricted to the divine or to clerics who choose the path of non-violence. What could embody the idea of restoration and renewal more than Mother Nature herself? In the real world, your body heals injuries all on it's own, regardless of your chosen gris gris. Someone who commands the forces of nature in a fantasy setting should absolutely be able to channel those forces in order to cure a sickness or mend a wound.

[pythonau]

I always envisaged clerics as the medieval version of an evangelist crossed with an inquisitor. Their faith is so great they have direct communication with their god, who grants them miracles. They will defend and spread their faith through word, deed, and the face of a hammer.

A paladin is mire like a crusader, the knights templar. They are the gods chosen soldiers, where the clerics spread the faith, the paladins defend it.

[anonymous_coward]

Everything Shad suggests only works in a monotheistic setting. Once multiple gods get involved suddenly pacifism for clerics falls apart since one devoted to the blood god needs to be violent.

[procow]

Clerics also spend a lot of time fighting against undead which is probably a big part of the reason they usually use blunt weapons

[guardiantree]

Paladin being unable to heal would be interesting, but my Druid shall not give up his healing.

Also to a Druid, their healing magic does come from the divine, be that nature itself or a nature god. Besides they have connections to the fae & old legends of hermits / Druids healing others.

Also it’d be a hard sell to get many players to play a character that can’t attack anything. As well as the dubious nature of a pacifist saying I won’t hit you, but let me restrain you with a spell so my friends can.

Nevertheless I’m glad you’re doing more of these fantasy discussions again.

[RancorSnp]

2 epiosodes of Fantasy re-Armed in one month, let's gooo

[trenthobson]

This was not a problem in old-school D&D.

I grew up with 2nd edition, and they provided a brief description of the historical or mythological inspiration for each class to give players a bit of direction. Originally, clerics were WAY less priestly and magical, and were described as being based on holy orders such as the Templar Knights. Paladins were described as being inspired by the chivalric knights of Arthurian legend, the Knights of the Round Table, who were also very religious, but not clergy like the Templars.

Modern gaming and pop culture have embraced more magic, and pushed paladins into the Templar-inspired role of the clerics. This then leaves clerics being either the exact same as paladins, or encourages them to be more of a mage or priest than a warrior-monk.

[WinterVulpine]

I think the best way to think of the difference between Paladin and Cleric is a Paladin Protects and a Cleric Heals. Also i think completely removing healing spells from a paladin will canibalse his motif, with the Paladin operating as essentially a battlefield Medic who will heal you enough to keep you alive, but you have to see a Cleric afterwards, or can keep a wounded soldier alive long enough to get to the cleric.

[DaMan]

I might be a tad biased here, seeing how i was a druid healer for almost 10 years in Everquest. But druids are perfectly fine as healers, as they use the soothing touch of mother nature herself to keep their allies alive. She can be a caring mother tending to her children, or a force of unparalleled destruction to her enemies.

[alanmcdade]

A cleric’s day job is tending the masses and evangelising about god, paladins are pious knights

[TTDundee]

One thing to consider with a vow of non-violence is that dnd is typically a polytheistic setting, with the gods as varied as the people, and by extension, their clerics also as varied; and while the idea of an evil cleric still being bound to such a vow is certainly interesting, it gets really messy with certain cleric/god archetypes (god of war or death or assassins etc.)

[alkatron]

I think the number of people that would just go full healbot willingly is very very low. And with healing magic practically locked behind the cleric someone would have to pick it anyway. That was a major problem with old systems, someone was gonna need to do something they don't like.
For stories, books, movies, games where 1 player controls multiple characters, this is usually already the distinction of Paladins and Clerics, and it works.

[shadowpathfinder]

Today Shad decides he needs to reveal to everyone that he doesn't know how to play 9th-level divine spellcasters in D&D-like pen-and-paper systems in as roundabout terms as possible, and as an aside he mentions that playing the God Wizard build isn't satisfying because the damage numbers aren't high enough.
Bravo 👏👏👏 Shad for coming out as the linear warrior. Encore