Why Tolkien Hated DUNE

Let's talk about why JRR Tolkien hated Dune, and his aversions to Frank Herbert' writing

A Cards and Reels Production
Created by Oseremen “Josemaria” Ojesebholo and Ehidiamhen “John-Paul” Ojesebholo

[henhenhennyhenhen]

I definitely think the gray mortality of DUNE is the reason why Tolkien disliked the story. Either that or maybe he just wasn't a fan of the sci fi aspects.

[KnifeCursed]

I feel like Herbert focused on humanity and making his characters feel more flawed with morality being more subjective. Tolkien was focused on more of a classical good vs evil story with fantastical characters and magic. I have a deep love of both stories. Both inspire the mind and soul.

[ursadabear]

Based entirely on the differences in their writing style, I imagine Tolkien said to Herbert what Tommy Lee Jones said to Jim Carrey on the set of Batman Forever:

“I cannot sanction your buffoonery.”

[ashcarrier]

Tolkien didn't even like cars, for goodness sake. He liked trees and forests and streams.

So...a book about a desert, with big worms, and space travel?

[xreevx]

I think you missed one major difference. Frank Herbert was very open about the allegories within Dune, where Tolkien has sated that he does not write allegories as he dislikes them. The heavy use of allegory which very much represented geopolitical power struggles of the time and the influence of the oil industry (especially as it applied to the Middle East, where the Freman culture was inspired) likely was not to Tolkien’s taste.

[watcherofthewest]

Tolkien was incredibly intelligent and imaginative and was a storyteller deeply rooted in myth and old stories. He didn't like a lot of the modern world and it's not too surprising he didn't care for Dune. Dune is still an amazing work. Herbert and Tolkien were just very, very different. Herbert was one of the masters of American scifi, Tolkien created his own genre.

[NollywoodJimiBendelTV]

I never thought of that. This is brilliant.

[asterozoan]

I think I agree with all of this, but to add a point:
Tolkien famously said "I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always have done so since I grew old and wary enough to detect its presence."
Meanwhile Herbert's Dune is very openly an allegory for so many things, including real-world war, politics, religion, and history.
I can see why Tolkien's hated of allegory would have lead to a dislike of such a work so laden with metaphor, messages, and analogy relating to our own world.

[IsaacEstrada]

Lord of the Rings is not as morally clear-cut as people make it out to be, with good and evil being mere external forces. The Ring brought out the dark side of everyone who came into contact with it, even on the "hero" side, the one exception being maybe Aragorn. Frodo ultimately failed to destroy the Ring. Gandalf and Galadriel refused to touch it out of fear of being controlled by it...

[billedefoudre]

I'm not as a deep thinker as you all for sure, so take my opinion as a dumb one (those honest in intentions).

But aside from the maybe obvious "just not liking scifi, or Dune's story specifically" argument, I may differ on some parts.

I'm not sure the "industrial vs craftmanship" argument is valid, for example.
Though the setting is utilitarian for sure, a big aspect of Dune is how the entire universe rejected technology, and crafted/trained humans, to do machine's jobs anywhere they can. (Mentat, Benes, etc...)
On top of just "benching" what remains in favor of noble knife duels and such.
Though unique in its take, the spirit of "don't forget mankind and its artistic beauty and capability to shape its world and tools" may be doubling-down, in Dune, to Tolkien's delight, theorically.

Herbert were big on "noble houses full of not so bad intent that alas plays out in complex geopolitics and legacy", so they're in tune on that too.
Tolkien's characters too, are crippled with dilemnas and don't react well to everything. (there's truckloads of Denethors that meant well but did bad things)
And some answers also came from "little" people and common folks (hobbits or fremens : it's NOT just about big heroes of old)

Not sure how many Dune books Tolkien got a grasp of, but the whole point of Dune's saga : to eradicate war from the heart of mankind, could also resonnate a lot with Tolkien's lead of eradicating evil once for all, even if it all dooms us in the process and unleash unfathomable complexity than none of those two authors shy off to write about.

Christian stuff, and how bad Dune treats religion, might not be a thing either.
All christan he is, Tolkien created a world with MANY gods, and a lot of them really bad, on top of that, and meddling with mortals and all, creating much more (and better!) than "humans" in the process, etc..
Each bit of this would vexate a "deep believer" in one god, that has to be god, with humans being the best he did, and a single isolated evil we'll fight and who won't win.
Nah-ah, Tolkien has really no issue with torpedo-ing his own christianity to tell a good story.
So I don't see him disturbed by Dune's tormenting of faith and religions.
On the contrary.

And about "the big cosmic order of thing" underlying Tolkien's work : could be more about that, yes.
But wasn't it smart enough to see it at work in the Golden Path, really ?
I don't know, I feel he could recognized a lot of his own loves in Herbert's work.

***

In my naive perspective, I feel what rubbed Tolkien the wrong way might be something else.

Namely : how barren and desolate the world is.
Tolkien is BIG on nature, its beauty, lush images of a loving and noble past (to an excess, rewriting medieval history with a very "negationnist" enthusiam to make it a fairytale nostalgy.... practically creating assumed "fantasy")
Dune is full of sands, cynical in desperate ways, everything is dusty, both in sights and in minds and hearts.
THAT is the big difference, I feel.

And on top of that, Dune is very spiteful and hopeless against its "past history" : all roots are cut.
Forget Earth, forget good things of old and the milk-man in shiny armor waving at children playing with daisies, it's all Butlerian Jihad, occulted shitty stuff, and let's make it "year 10191" anyway so we're sure you won't go dig anything up : "just forget the past, turn to the future, however grim it might be"
THAT is also something that could punch Tolkien in the guts, alas, because he's all about nostalgy.

But it's thin, and the more I think about it, the less Tolkien's dislike makes sense.
Unless he could read only the first 2 books or something, chronology-wise ?
As most of Dune's themes and meanings flourish with the following books, maybe Tolkien never got to really hear what it was really about.

Or maybe it was just a gut subjective thing, with no big brain involved, and maybe that's why he didn't developped his opinion.
It was just like "meh, don't got me, sorry."

[visionmedia]

Love your videos, would love to see a Cosmere review if you've read some Brandon Sanderson

[hideousruin]

I've never been able to read Lord of the Rings. I find it impenetratively boring. Dune hooked me right away and I've read up to God Emperor.

I have to add though I love the world Tolkien created and have read tons of lore, and as a huge fantasy fan I have consumed countless works in all forms of media influenced by his work. I'm just very particular about the prose I read. A lot of the detail that fans of Tolkien love is likely what feels superfluous to the story at hand to me and an aspect I don't enjoy.

[skepticsanalysis]

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. - Ephesians 6:12

I think this summarizes Tolkien's Literary perspective.

[conforzo]

It is a pretty deep philosophical difference. Tolkien was a staunch catholic, historian and mythologist. Frank Herbert was a journalist, more interested in the current history. Also, they are different ages. Frank Herbert was 25 years old when the bombs were dropped on Hiroshima. Tolkien was 53. The post-modern influence on Herbert cannot be discarded. Ideas of moral absolutism and universality began to be discarded during the early 20th century, but again, Tolkien was not in an age to be as influenced by this.

[JN-xbpq]

Good analysis, but I think the main reason was probably that Tolkien was a Catholic, and one of Dune's main themes is a very cynical view of faith.

[attackofthecopyrightbots]

well they're very different makes sense to me

[marniekilbourne]

I loved Tolkien's work and I find it compelling and interesting. I have tried but I can't STAND Dune, not even the newer movies. I enjoy the Star Wars Universe but I have zero interest in anything about Dune. Not sure what it is but I can't care at all of enjoy any of it. It is very complex but all of that is still boring as hell to me.

[frontech]

The One Ring is a Star-Gate. I mean it can morph, right? It seems to be an A.I. .

[scattau]

Herbert & his nihilistic claptrap are for people who think moral ambiguity is a requirement of the modern mind.

[bazotter]

Really? They made their own great worlds. literally